Is it ever proper to withhold a get?

To answer your question, the Torah doesn’t have divorce on demand and just because one spouse wants it and asks for it does not mean halacha says he has to give it. If there’s no obligation to give it, the halacha supports declining to give it. Only after a beis din holds a case and determines it is halachicly required and formally demands and requires it be given per halacha, is there an obligation to give. In other cases where the intention is to give it but the other spouse is committing an injustice such as improperly withholding access to the children or using secular courts to obtain money or assets from the other, often a rov will advise it is proper to hold off giving it until the spouse corrects their improper and unhalachic actions against the spouse.

Francorachel3:

I feel your pain. You need a supportive Rav, who is not afraid to fight your case, and who is experienced enough not to be fooled by the other party’s presentation.

I wish you much hatzlacha, and may Hashem champion your cause.

That said, I agree with Navi’s (refreshingly dispassionate) comment. The fact is that there are cases where the wife is the one manipulating the situation (and the tendency on the part of ignorant observers to assume that the husband is evil). There are cases (some with which I am intimately familiar) where the wife and her family are guilty of horrific psychological abuse of the husband, starting with the wedding day and continuing through divorce negotiations. In these cases, responsible Rabbonim have advised the husbands that they are under no obligation to grant a get.

This is a serious matter which needs to be adjudicated by wise, experienced, caring Rabbonim (and without the corruption of certain “To’anim” who care about nothing and no one other than their own bank account).

U’macha Hashem Elokim dim’a me’al kol panim.

Of course there are cases when witholding the get is proper. The only ones that really know the reasons for the divorce and the witholding of the get are the couple.In most situations it’s best to give the get and get on with life, but some men and some women are unreasonable.

Bais Din is limited in its ability to order a Get be given if the husband advises the Bais Din he wishes to remain married to his wife. In order for the b’d to demand a Get against his wishes, it needs to determine and verify a specific situation occurred that halacha expressly gives her the right to a Get against his desire. As a practical matter it is infrequent that beis din will order it be given against wishes.

Once it’s clear the marriage is over, it is never appropriate. Usually if she continues to state that there is never any chance for reconciliation for a few weeks or more then it is clear the marriage is over and any Beis Din will agree and order her to give the Get.

Sam, I may be wrong but I don’t think the woman gives the get.

lebidik yankel is correct. the mechaber (eh 77:2) and the rema (77:3) rule that even with maos alei beit din is not empowered to force a get. even if she has evidence of maos alei they rule beit din wont force her to remain in his home but wont force him to give a get. if she claims she was beat by him that would be grounds to force it be given only after beit din verified the veracity of the claim according to the mechaber and gave him the opportunity to shape up and stop it and he still persisted. if she altogether has no evidence of grounds for a get then even she persistently requests it the beit din is not empowered to grant it. the teshuvos harosh (43:6) rules that if beit din pressures him to give it when they weren’t supposed to, the result is a get meusa.

mz: Thanks. Typos happen.

moishepipik: That is only immediate. According to many Poskim, she cannot claim Maus Alai to immediately receive a Get because Shema Nasna Eineha B’acher. But if they are separated for months and the marriage is over, then Beis Din can force to give a Get. We do not force women to remain in unhappy marriages. Are you actually claiming that if he fulfills his technical legal duties and never hits her that she can’t end the marriage, even if she’s miserable? She has to be chained to someone she can’t stand being with forever? Once the marriage is over (e.g. separated for more than a few weeks and no desire for counseling), he is obligated to give a Get so she can move on. End of discussion.

leibdik yainkel: First of all, Halachically, a partner can usually just up and take his half of the business and leave. So you chose a bad example. Second of all, you chose a bad example because a marriage is nothing like a business. A marriage is life, nothing less. A business is just a job.

as he will be a divorcee seeking to marry a never married girl if he happens to be the Kohen Godol; However, if he is a regular Kohen, he can also marry an Almono. BTW, even if he is married to an Almono, he is eligible to subsequently be appointed to be Kohen Godol.

sam2 & benignuman, thanks for your input on my post. what you write is how the rambam paskens about permitting pressure on a bona fide maos alei case. but the mechaber rules against rambam on this that beit din isnt permitted and the poskim since consistently accept the mechaber. yes, even if it is a long time separated it still isnt permitted to force him against his will. the mechaber and rema dont differentiate when permitting coercing the husband regardless of time they have been apart. a caveat to that is that it she can demonstrate to beit din that she has a legitimate maos alei permitted to do societal pressure, but no more – and even cherem isnt permitted. as you said there are cases where he is obligated to give a get even though beit din cannot coerce him (or it will be a get meusa) but he will give din vcheshbon if he refuses and there are other cases, such as she cannot prove a valid reason of maos alei (eg she feels he isnt loving or nice enough), that if he doesnt want to give a get he is entirely within his prerogative under halakha to decide he wishes the marriage to continue – and her leaving him regardless of lenth of time does not mean he has any obligation to give a get if he earnestly wishes to remain married. the ravvad in yerushalayim and rav eliashev write strong words against beit dins that apply pressure when it isnt permitted and they write their doing so causes mamzeirus in the world. since this is an issue with catastrophic consequences if a get meusa is used to remarry the poskim are very stringent in forbidding relying on the rambam to permit coercion by maos alei.

Withholding a get might be permissible as far as halacha – letter of the law – requires. But in many situations, it is simply not menchlich. There is a mitzvah of ????? ???? ?????, and this has become one of the less popular mitzvos. Knowing many cases of divorces, before, during, and after, I would chalk up statistics that are pretty even in terms of men and women being unfair about the process. Giving the get before the affairs are settled is foolish. Most batei din will not stand for it. Our media has reported on a few such cases that achieved notoriety.

A man can be ordered by beis din, and still not give a get. This has occurred many times, and the fact that such a scenario exists speak loudly and ill of the prevailing level of yir’as shomayim. Conversely, the women who make ridiculous demands, refusing to accept equitable settlements are equally as lacking in yir’as shomayim.

We witness today that organizations like ACS, which should be charged with protecting children, are exploited by divorcing parents to deny the other side access to their own children. What a shame that our systems allow for such manipulation and diversion.

I encourage other readers of this thread and commenters to keep an open mind, and refrain from generalizations about men, women, or even batei din. There is enough corruption and dishonesty for all to share hefty portions. No case can be judged by “statistics”.

moishepipik,

You are confusing halachic categories. The Rambam holds that B”D is koifeh by a legitimate (i.e. with amasla) maos alai right away. Rashi holds that by maos alai we give them 12 months to work it out, living together, and then are koifeh if they can’t work it out. The Rema and the Mechaber pasken not like the Rambam and Rashi, but rather like Rabbeinu Tam and the Rashba who hold that we are not koifeh by maos alai because “shema nasna ainav b’acher” and if the maos alai was a lie, then the kefiah would be improper and the get posul (note that it is a chashash mamzeirus, not actual mamzeirus). However Rabbeinu Tam holds, and the Rema paskens, that societal pressure is not considered kefiah at all.

There is a separate din that if a husband is no longer living with his wife and no longer supporting her on a regular basis, then we are koifeh. What Sam2 and I were describing is this latter din.

leibdik: Forcing someone to remain in a marriage they don’t want to be in is straight-up evil, no matter what your reason. You think she’s in the wrong? That’s fine. You could even be right. It doesn’t matter. It is one of the most despicable things a person can do to force a life of loneliness on another human being. Leaving out any Issurim of Ona’ah, Ahavas Rei’im, etc., people can find technical ways to be be evil and still not violate any specific Dinim. That doesn’t make them not evil.

I am by far NOT holding in gittin with halacha. However, we much all realize the approach to the concept of a get in the first place is from the Torah HaKedosha. As heard from one great speaker, if nobody is “in charge” of the relationship, the woman is not a wife – she’s a “pilegesh,” or, if you want to rile up the person asking the question, say it in English: a concubine. There’s no direction or leader – there’s just a mutually agreed idea that they are together.

Jewish marriage has responsibilities on each side, and the Torah, Moshe Emes v’Toraso Emes, and Chazal the bears of the mosora of Torah she ba’al peh, had nothing but the most pure and best intentions for marriage to work. A get is a part of that process.

I just wanted to make sure everyone knows why the halachic debate being had here is germane in the first place.

In other words, to answer the question of the asker, it -is- sometimes proper to withhold a get. The main point of the get is to show that the husband has a certain control. And that -is- respectful to women. V’Ain Cahn Makom L’ha’arikh.

We have to make sure we don’t insert our false and sometimes, unfortunately, ingrained Western Feminism values into this discussion. The Torah is NOT Western, and it is NOT American. It is JEWISH, the best feminism that exists.

frumnotyeshivish: Rabbeinu Gershom is one of the people that thought that. His takana gives the wife the right to refuse accepting the Get on the basis she wants to continue the marriage even though the husband does not. (The reverse (the husband’s right to such) was always a Torah law.)

Some women are very fickle and under the influence of modern attitudes will trash a marriage in 10 seconds. I know a number of very nice men whose wives divorced them and took the kids. The get rules are likely created to prevent that sort of thing. So the divorce mongers like to advertise the extreme cases and pretend every man is a monster and all gets are justified. They are not. Just like you can’t walk away from your kids if you don’t like them, you can’t necessarily walk away from your spouse either.

Yankel: +1

There doesn’t seem much of a fight here – general consensus is that as far as Hilchos Bein Odom Lmokom (Hilchos Gittin) are concerned, there is no obligation for a husband for divorce his wife just because she wants out. However, Bein Odom Lechaveiro would dictate that he does divorce her.

Yekke: I would posit, as I believe Yankel does above, that if there is no justifiable cause for divorce (i.e. “being silly” as Sam put it), then it would be Bein Odom Lechaveiro for the spouse seeking a divorce without good reason to agree to remain married rather than the reverse.

Like Yankel pointed out, the spouse invested in his marriage the time, love, energy, a portion of his life and the joint bringing of children to the world. And a divorce is usually traumatic for both the spouses and their children and is a major life change for everyone. It is not only his legal right to insist but it is entirely fair that a spouse desires and seeks for shalom bayis and the continuation of their marriage especially if a divorce is being sought for silly or rectifiable reasons.

What if someone wanted to “divorce” and end their relationship with their children? Or their parents. The day is not too far off where some judge will find some kind of “Constitutional right” to do so! And, unfortunately like much else, once society gets used to that and accepts it as a right, some of our own chevra will have drunk that kool-aid that such a right exists. And will insist anyone trying to deny a person the right to end his undesirable relationship with his children or parents is violating Veohavta lereiacha komocha and Bein Adam Lchaveiro. And that it is disturbing that anyone could believe one should be denied their desire to divorce themselves from their children. Even for silly reasons.

I see frum people online advocating that their is a right to same gender marriage! Civil rights, minority rights and all the stuff that the media bombards society with. Some frum people have drunk that kool-aid. Would you even dream that a mere 20 years ago you would be hearing frum people supporting same gender “marriage”?!? Not even in a nightmare. Secular society, too, was dead set against such a travesty then. Now that society has accepted those new lack of values have too crept into our own values. 25 years ago if a frum person advocated such a horrible thing they would be sent to a doctor.

edited

Lior, two points.

1) One can choose to sever relationships with parents or children with no ramifications, other than financial obligations regarding young children, and of course the mitzvah of kibud/mora for which there is no get. Only marriage requires a get, or l’havdil, secular divorce, to terminate it. I do agree with you that marriage has become too disposable to many, but I don’t see the point of comparison to other relationships.

2) At what point does a husband reach the understanding that despite the wife being entirely wrong for wanting to end the marriage, she is not changing her mind? Two years? Five years? Never? If a woman left her husband twenty years ago for silly reasons, should he not give the get simply because she’s still in the wrong?

Sam, these two issues are similar in that the individual case has to be weighed against precedent. If we allow a woman to ask for and receive a get at whim (same with a man giving one), we support making marriage disposable. Yet, the individual case is served better by allowing it.

Same with charges of abuse. Of course, better safe than sorry, but we risk allowing charges of abuse being indiscriminately used as a bargaining chip or tool for revenge, as it has been used.

There’s no easy answer here.

Francorachel3: I have seen children who were molested and you can tell there is a problem. Their whole demeanor is different.

I know the family involved and I know the lawyer. She recommends often that the wife make that accusation. It was hardly the first time. Also, in private, the wife admitted as such. She couldn’t recant because she made the accusation under oath and could be charged with perjury.

This woman lawyer went through a nasty divorce herself and plays very dirty. It’s common knowledge among many people in that community. People are falsely accused all the time. I have no sympathy for molesters. They should be locked up and the key thrown away.