Hunting and Judaism

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  • #613119
    finley
    Participant

    Can someone please tell me if Hunting is allowed according to halacha?

    I keep hearing different answers.

    I want to go to the woods and shoot some birds, bears, deer.

    #1022634
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yitzchok told (who he thought was) eisav to hunt for him.

    #1022635
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    No its not according to most

    You can fish if you like though

    #1022636
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Noda B’Yehuda Mahdura Tinyana Yoreh Deiah 10

    #1022637
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    Name one source. Just one.

    Shmuly Yankelowitz v’chol hanilvim alov are not sources. Nor is google.

    #1022638
    finley
    Participant

    so is that a yes?

    #1022639
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If you can aim like Reb Yona Bar Tachlifa then you may hunt birds.

    #1022640
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Popa, Chazal say that Yitzchok actually taught him how to Shecht.

    #1022641
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you can aim like Reb Yona Bar Tachlifa then you may hunt birds.

    How’d he learn how to do it?

    #1022642
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Is it hunting for sport or for food?

    #1022643
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Noda B’Yehuda that I mentioned basically says that if you don’t need it for parnassa then its cruelty and it’s also assur to put yourself in such a makom sakanna (perhaps one can argue that modern hunting is not such a sakanna) but if you need it for parnassa then it is not cruelty and it’s ok to put yourself in such a makom sakanna.

    You can read the Teshuva here:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14662&st=&pgnum=100

    #1022644
    yaakov doe
    Participant

    popa -He learned through practice

    #1022645
    finley
    Participant

    hunting for sport.

    #1022646
    akuperma
    Participant

    Hunting for sport is clearly prohibited. Hunting for food is permitted – however you would have to capture the animals to slaughter them halachically. I’ve heard of people hunting with goyim and giving the goy the animal to eat. However I don’t think anyone would allow killing animals for fun.

    #1022647
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bears are kosher, Goq? 🙂

    Here’s the link to the NB quoted by PAA. He says it’s achzarius, and also assur because of sakana.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14662&st=&pgnum=100&hilite=

    So, finley, that is a no.

    #1022648
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa -He learned through practice

    That was my point. That he must have been doing it before he was that good also.

    #1022649

    nisht- it’s interesting how you assumed zd’s sources would be apikorsim, but it turned out to be that the shitah he quoted is backed by huge gedolei yisroel.

    #1022650
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    See also Igros Moshe Choshen Mishpat 1:104

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14675&st=&pgnum=167

    #1022651
    Avi K
    Participant

    Patur, Rav Moshe does not say which of ball game he is referring. Baseball? Not so dangerous. Perhaps football? In Israel, the English-speakers’ yeshivot have their own league. Are exercise and letting off steam matirim?

    #1022652
    Redleg
    Participant

    The issur of tzar b’allei chaim prohibits causing unnecessary pain or suffering to an animal. The key word is “unnecessary”. For instance, shechting a cow certainly causes pain to the animal but the shechita is necessary and, therefore, muttar. Likewise, hunting for any halachically legitimate purpose should be permitted. While one can clearly not hunt for food (unless you could somehow capture a kosher animal alive, and shect it) if, say, you wanted the dear skin for a klaph, or a bear skin for a rug, or you wanted to shoot coyotes for their fur, It seems to me that such hunting would technically be muttar.

    P.S. I don’t think some posters are clear about what “hunting for sport” is. To my knowledge, all big game hunting is for food in that the meat is never wasted. In America, almost all hunters are meat hunters, that is they butcher and eat their prey. On guided big game hunts in Alaska, the hunter can either keep the meat for him or herself or it gets distributed among the local villages. In Africa the meat is always distributed among the local population. All the hunter gets is the pelt.

    #1022653
    Redleg
    Participant

    “If you can aim like Reb Yona Bar Tachlifa then you may hunt birds.”

    Actually, there were, and are still, special arrows for hunting birds in flight. It has a wide, crescent-shaped head sharpened on the outer edge. It is intended to cut the throat of, or decapitate, flying birds.

    #1022654
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Rat,

    I did not assume his sources were apikorsim, I assumed, and I am sure correctly so, that he had no clue as to any sources and was just spouting what he assumed.

    He would then google and that is who would show up.

    If either of you would have read the NB and understood any part of it, You would see that it does not support ZD. There would be no difference between hunting and fishing.

    And hunting for skins would probably be mutar if you could mitigate sakana.

    Your assumption is wholly incorrect.

    #1022655
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Red leg,

    The Noda B’Yehuda says that there is no issue of tzar balei chayim.

    Cruelty is not realy an accurate translation of achzorius.

    #1022656
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Patur, Rav Moshe does not say which of ball game he is referring. Baseball? Not so dangerous. Perhaps football? In Israel, the English-speakers’ yeshivot have their own league. Are exercise and letting off steam matirim?”

    He is referring to something which is ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? and something which is ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????

    Now his Teshuva is specifically talking about ??????? ????? ?????

    ??????? which would seem to imply that if it’s not ??????? then it would be assur (unless there is some other hechrech on par with parnassa which would allow you to engage in an activity with a small risk of sakanna).

    #1022657
    finley
    Participant

    so i see more yes that nos

    #1022658
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    so i see more yes that nos

    I really wouldn’t recommend hunting for someone with vision problems.

    #1022659
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “The Noda B’Yehuda says that there is no issue of tzar balei chayim”

    He says that killing is not tzar ba’alei chaim and that ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????. That is not quite a blanket heter.

    “And hunting for skins would probably be mutar if you could mitigate sakana.

    Your assumption is wholly incorrect.”

    If hunting for skins is necessary for parnassa then it would be muttar even if you couldn’t mitigate the sakanna.

    #1022660
    Sam2
    Participant

    Talmidim of R’ Moshe have said that that T’shuvah was referring to baseball, where deaths were more common than they are nowadays (though they still happen once in a tremendously long while). I don’t recall that T’shuvah precisely, but I do remember that R’ Ovadiah ( Yabia Omer 1 YD 27 or 26, I think) has a line proving that it’s Muttar to enter a Safek Sakanah for Parnassah.

    #1022661
    benignuman
    Participant

    No, you see a nuanced answer being expressed in different ways by different people.

    Nisht, I always thought “cruelty” was the best translation of achzorius. Do you have another, better, translation in mind?

    #1022662
    Redleg
    Participant

    Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough but I was essentially citing the NB. There is an issur of tzar b’alei chaim but it does not apply letzarech adam.

    #1022663
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Its anyway stealing because all the wild game belongs to the king.

    #1022664
    ahirsch
    Participant

    Basically according to the NB, it isn’t forbidden per se, but it is considered an aggressive tendency that Jews should refrain from doing. If you want to hunt for fun, even if you want to donate the meat to a non Jewish homeless shelter, it is not specifically forbidden, but it isn’t something that Jews should be doing.

    #1022665
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Ovadiah Yosef prohibited Bloodsport (Bullfighting) and even prohibited seeing a bullfight

    #1022666
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    PAA,

    I never said that the NB issued a blanket heter, it was clear that this was in reference to hunting.

    And your comment about skins, I was referring to cases where it is not for parnassah, just that the person would like the skin for whatever personal use. In such a case, you may have to mitigate the sakana.

    You were jumping the gun on your assumptions.

    #1022667
    Sam2
    Participant

    ahirsch: If you want to donate the meat that’s probably considered a purpose and it should be fine in that case.

    #1022668
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Beni,

    I think it refers more to a cruel nature rather than cruelty itself. Somewhat like ahirsch is describing above.

    #1022669
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    1) How is that all relevant? Hunting is very different.

    2) Where does he say this. Please provide a citation.

    #1022670
    oomis
    Participant

    The desire to hunt for sport is cruel. Animals feel pain and fear, and we are a nation of rachmanim bnei rachmanim. Achzorius IS cruelty, and speaks to a middah of intrinsic hardness of the heart. There is nothing “sporting” about chasing an animal down until it is too tired or weak to get away. Nimrod and Esav were known to be mighty hunters. Their depiction in the Torah or Medrash, is not a flattering one.

    #1022671
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The desire to hunt for sport is cruel. Animals feel pain and fear, and we are a nation of rachmanim bnei rachmanim. Achzorius IS cruelty, and speaks to a middah of intrinsic hardness of the heart. There is nothing “sporting” about chasing an animal down until it is too tired or weak to get away. Nimrod and Esav were known to be mighty hunters. Their depiction in the Torah or Medrash, is not a flattering one.

    I agree.

    #1022672
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft:

    I know that it was in reference to hunting. I was qualifying that even in reference to hunting it’s not a blanket heter – it’s only a heter to kill or to cause pain for a constructive purpose (and even then presumably you would have to do it in the least painful way possible in accordance with Moreh Nevuchim 3:48).

    Regarding the skins, it seems that I misread/misunderstood the back and forth between you and Redleg. I thought that “And hunting for skins would probably be mutar if you could mitigate sakana” was a quote from Redleg and your response was “Your assumption is wholly incorrect” which I took to mean that you were saying that even if you could mitigate sakana it would be assur. To that I responded that even without mitigating sakana it is muttar for parnassa i.e. the only reason it would be assur is sakana, and parnassa overrides sakana, and obviously then if you mitigate the sakana then it would be muttar even if it is not strictly necessary for parnassa since as already established it’s not tzar ba’alei chaim if it’s for a constructive purpose. So I think in this regard we agree that if it is for parnassa then you don’t need to mitigate sakana and if it is not strictly for parnassa but it is for a constructive purpose then it is muttar if you mitigate the sakana. This is all aside from the fact that it might not be ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????.

    #1022673
    oomis
    Participant

    “I agree.”

    I believe Moshiach is coming! 🙂

    #1022674
    midwesterner
    Participant

    I know the son of a certain adam gadol, who kind of “dances to his own drummer.” He once asked Reb Moshe about hunting (or it may have been fishing, its been many years since I heard this and that detail is a bit hazy in my memory.) Reb Moshe responded, “Ich ken nit zogen az es iz ossur.” Then after a slight pause he asked, “Uber host du amohl gelernt in yeshiva?”

    #1022675
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    PAA,

    I was saying that hunting is not ossur because of tzaar balei chayim.

    And you need to edit what you wrote. Killing the animal is not ossur because of tzar baalie chayim.

    Causing Tzaar for a necessity is also muttar.

    #1022676
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “And you need to edit what you wrote. Killing the animal is not ossur because of tzar baalie chayim.”

    I never said that killing it is assur because of tzar ba’alri chaim.

    “Causing Tzaar for a necessity is also muttar”

    I already said this.

    #1022677
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Good people don’t do it.

    #1022678
    my own kind of jew
    Participant

    Because killing things for fun is a core value you want to have?

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