Is it appropriate to propose at kotel

Perhaps not right in front, but maybe somewhere in the plaza if it’s done right, just a simple proposal and nothing schticky or flashy.

what better place to consider starting a new jewish home.

Source for “one was not even permitted to taked photos as the kosel” please?

Mazal Tov!

If there is no proposal, the marriage is not right because both sides mightn’t agree.

Yaakov Avinu met Rochel at the well and fell in love.

The following is a rough translation of a paragraph written by R’ Aron Kotler ztz”l. It is part of an essay bemoaning the juvenile and uneducated way people understand chumash:

Another example of a parsha in the Torah which people in the street understand in a distorted fashion is the story of Yakov and Rochel … if we evaluate this story by mixing in even a hint of personal desires, we have offended greatly towards Yakov, whose image is engraved on the Kisei HaKovod … furthermore, there is no basis at all to such an understanding … thus such an explanation is certainly a perversion, and indeed blasphemous.

I personally feel very strongly against the many inappropriate “uses” the Kosel is put to, which turn it into a tourist attraction at best, and often much worse.

In this case, I just can’t see anything inappropriate with it serving as a setting for a proposal. (As opposed to, say, when kallah’s come to use it as a background for their pictures on their wedding day – don’t get me started!)

This is a completely different discussion from the appropriateness of different ways of proposing, many of which employ a levity which perhaps detracts from the seriousness and importance of what’s occurring, and is what I imagine most people really have a problem with when they say they have a problem with “proposals”.

Someone who does indeed have a problem with proposals per se should better address the main issue of the way we date, of which our proposals are only a natural outgrowth.

My Rebbe HaRav Asher Arieli once came back from the Kosel friday night, his new father in law, Rav Nachum Partzovitz, asked him how it was, and he mentioned there was dancing. Rav Nachum asked if it was appropriate to dance in front of a dead body of a relative, i.e. the Churban.

Oomis:

This is one of the (very few) times I feel I have to disagree.

While it’s true Yaakov did “fall in love” with Rochel, he was certainly on a higher plane than our fleshy desires and cravings, as Logician noted, brought too in many seforim.

However, you are right to a degree, as the Ohr Hachaim writes, the Torah, while relating any episode chooses the wording it does to teach the right way of life. So yes, to propose (however way deemed appropriate) is commendable, actually a (hecsher) Mitzva.

The main point I’m disagreeing on, is that there’s a place for everything. The setting of a propositioning is not really in line with the Kedusha of the Kosel, or any Holy area. Actually it really should be done more privately as the setting of one’s intimate closeness with his/her future other half. We find in Gemarah it’s wrong to be Mekadesh in a public domain, it’s not something done in the “public eye”, it’s a private thing, introducing a “home privacy”. This is certainly not in line with the Kedusha, the decorum of a holy place.

There are many Mitzvhos. To attend one’s bodily needs is also a Mitzvah, yet it’s certainly not done in a holy place, nor in any public area. Every Mitzvah, every deed has its place, its proper setting. Feelings of awe and respect, holiness and sanctity are the right settings for a Makom Kadosh.

Oh, excuse me! I didn’t realize that our resident Bible Critic was logged in.

Ah, if only R’ Aron could have met you, and you would have set him straight from his uneducated and juvenile ways!

I don’t know what you’re getting at. There are four general views to the Torah, and they branch off to seventy. Many levels, and all are true, some in a different angle, sense, direction. The actual, factual “down to earth”, gashmius level is often discussed in the many commentaries of Chumash. Medrashic lore is generally understood in a different view – Drush. All views are true.

What you write about the Avos is slightly true, they were certainly NOT malachim, they were so much higher! They had, as you noted, human emotions, yet worked themselves up the spiritual ladder far, far more than a celestial Malach. Me and you don’t have daily conversations with angels. Last time I fought with a Malach, it bode me no good. And my (your’s too) portrait is certainly not posted on the Kesei Hakovod. Obviously the Avos were something way way up! We’re supposed to goad ourselves on in life – ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? – when will our actions TOUCH UPON, a mere touch, to those of our holy forefathers. There’s a very special reason we mention our forefathers at the beginning of Amida thrice daily. Their zchusim were and are the pillars of our Nation’s existence.

Much has been said about the failure of the yeshiva system to bequeth its talmidim with a secular education. Not enough has been said about its failures in giving a true torah education. Usually everyone can agree that the bnei yeshiva are of impeccable middos and derech eretz. With some unfortunately this too has eluded them.

Little Froggie, if this is one of the few times with which we disagree, I would say we are doing pretty well, so far. 🙂

Now as to your quote:

“The setting of a propositioning”

I believe you meant “proposing,” as propositioning someone is NEVER a tzniusdig davar sheb’kedusha.

I still feel(albeit emotionally and without Halachic foundation) that the Kosel does not seem to me to be an inappropriate place to ask someone to agree to marry. If anything, to me the Kedushas Hamakom would inspire me spiritually to really feel awe-inspired at that moment, and to ask Hashem for a special Bracha while standing there. In the absence of an actual Halacha that forbids such a thing (and I have no idea if that is the case or not, so forgive my admitted ignorance), I don’t think anyone needs to project his/her own personal feelings onto it to say it is wrong. Maybe it is, but maybe it is NOT. What does Daas Torah say about this?

need seminary help, do you have a source for not kissing babies in shul?

JF02 –

Shulchan Aruch 98:1

and not only children.

Not during davening is questionable.

Besalel is completely correct. I was going to write that I agree with him, but then I dug deeper into the matter and determined that I agree with him because he is correct.

The story with R’ Nachum as well illustrates the fallacy of this mode of avodah. Would you dance at the grave of a relative? Under certain circumstances, sure. For example, if the relative spent his life trying to find a cure for cancer, and some time after he died, a process he discovered is perfected and turns out to be effective. I would absolutely celebrate at his grave.

The Bais Hamikdash was destroyed because of sinas chinam. It is perfectly valid avodah to dance at the kosel as an expression of achdus. If R’ Nochum doesn’t want to dance he doesn’t have to. I assure you, R’ Nachman will not give him lomdus tips.

edited

It is appropriate to propose at the kotel. It can be argued if it is inappropriate to make a whole scene of it.