- This topic has 15 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Were the Dead Sea Scrolls written by a heretical group similar to the Nazarenes that later spawned Christianity or the Sadducees or the Essenes?
Do the Dead Sea Scrolls have any relevancy to Judaism (other than being authored by heretical Jews)?
I always wondered what the huge fascination was, and how kofrim could possibly “prove” anything from them, since they were likely written by kofrim.
Beyond the fact they have nothing to do with christianity, no one is sure about the “Dead Sea Scrolls”. One theory is they are the leftovers of a library, or perhaps a genizah, and probably represent a variety of groups. They are especially interesting to frum Jews for several reasons: 1) they totally disproved the assertions made prior to their discovery that Taanach was written in final form in the medieval period – according to the secular opinions of the early 20th century a complete text of Taanch couldn’t exist that early; 2) in some cases they have details of discussions that are referenced or replied to in the gemara (but not detailed, since halacha went diffrerently); 3) some of the arguments on halacha sound very modern (as in who won’t eat at someone’s house and why. Dr. Schiffman’s books are probably the most readable ones – when anyone other than frum Jews looks at them they tend to end up comically displaying their ignorance. Note that from a halachic perspective they are totally irrelevant, but from an historical perspective they are fascinating.
What Akuperma said is basically correct. There are some passages identical to those found in our Midrashei Halachah. They might not prove anything about Yiddishkeit back then (though can learn about the “Orthodox” by what their opponents said), but they certainly prove things about the larger Jewish society, for whatever that’s worth.
I’ve heard there are parts of the scrolls that were never made public, which according to rumor is because they cast doubt on the historical veracity of Christianity. Any basis to this ?
The Essenes did live in the Dead Sea area so a lot of Dead Sea scholars and professors of Jewish history attribute the scrolls to the Esseness. The Esseness were a Jewish sect, they followed the oral law but felt that all men should be celibate, always tahor, lived in isolation from the rest of the world and live their life as builders (carried an ax everywhere they went) waiting for the day when they can rebuild the third temple. They believed they were going to be builders of temple and only people who were pure to the best of their ability from birth could build the temple.
The scrolls do not as far as I know mention anything to do with christianity.
They’re just from a fringe group that died a while ago.
I got to see them for real it was pretty cool actually…..
They were certainly heretics, if for no other reason than they used a 364 day solar calendar, not the Jewish calendar.
I believe that the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all but 2 books of Tanach. Scholars consider them scientific proof that the content of Tanach was in written form before the establishment of Christianity.
Scholars consider them scientific proof that the content of Tanach was in written form before the establishment of Christianity.
But not neccesarily in their final form. For example, one of the scrolls has Tehillim 145 (Ashrei), but it has a “nun” passuk (whereas, by the time of the Gemara, it was well established that there the “nun” passuk was omitted).
The Wolf
WolfishMusings: A few letters. The “settled science” 80 years ago would predict that at most a vague rough draft existed during the Bayit Sheini period.
WolfishMusings: A few letters. The “settled science” 80 years ago would predict that at most a vague rough draft existed during the Bayit Sheini period.
More than a few letters. I just gave you an example of an entire passuk.
Nonetheless, I will agree with you that the text was largely in its present form by the time of the Second Bais HaMikdash.
The Wolf
“But not neccesarily in their final form. For example, one of the scrolls has Tehillim 145 (Ashrei), but it has a “nun” passuk (whereas, by the time of the Gemara, it was well established that there the “nun” passuk was omitted).”
That’s not a proof. In many scrolls this group tried amending the variations between Kri and Ksiv – to make them “grammatically correct,” similarly they would’ve tried amending what would seem to them “the missing Nun” of Ashrei – as they were a group which seemingly were Tzedukim and beleive in Torah Shebal Peh
They are incredibly valuable in their own right, without the need for derivative values like “what they tell us about halacha”. They a direct link to our great-great-grand antecedents.
They also have the potential to teach us an incredible amount about Judaism during bayis sheini – if we are willing to listen. For example, IMO two of the above posts completely miss the point on two of the discoveries.
The “tehilla l’david” with the passuk for nun is not so much a question of who was right vs. who was wrong. It puts R’ Yochanan’s statement into context – he’s not just rationalizing an oddity; he’s explaining why his choice of the no-nun version is better.
And the 364 day calendar is mind-blowing – it completely redefines how we think about the interactions between the tzedokim and the chachamim regarding the calendar. Of course, we are not tzedokim so we don’t care what they thought was the correct day of pesach, but now we know what they were trying to get when they manipulated the beis din to declare rosh chodesh. (It also could explain several discrepancies in the New Testament regarding the death of yoshko and its relationship to Pesach, but I suspect The Yeshiva World is less than interested.)
Veltz Meshugener: The calendar isn’t so shocking. They obviously knew about the solar calendar since the Egyptians used it, and the scrolls reflect materials from the period in which the Romans switched from a luni-solar (what we use) to a solar (they encountered the problem of the people in charge cheating on adding the month to enhance revenue or terms of office – an issue we resolved be excluding those with ulterior motives from the calendar Beis Din). Also the Beis Din clearly was using a modern calendar in order to know where to look for the new moon and when.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.