Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF)

Let’s look at the facts (emes means truth, as in the objective truth, not subjective emotions).

There are some IDF soldiers who do protect some Jews.

There are also soldiers in countries around the world that also protect Jews.

It would make sense that the numbers would be higher in Israel, but this is irrelevant.

(In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.)

Either way, the facts are that not all IDF soldiers protect Jews (some may have other missions), and certainly not all IDF soldiers protect all Jews.

You have also significantly diverged from observable truth by stating “…to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.”

What you mean is “…to protect and save the people living in Israel from the enemies who wish to destroy them/Israel.”

This is a very important distinction because your way propagandizes the Zionist bald-faced lies about Zionists claiming to be the universal protector of Jews.

Particularly for a screen name such as yours, more precision is required, in my humble opinion.

The bottom line is to daven for the safety of our brethren wherever they may be and let Hashem work out how to run His world.

“You have also significantly diverged from observable truth by stating ‘…to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.’

What you mean is ‘…to protect and save the people living in Israel from the enemies who wish to destroy them/Israel.’

Not all of Am Yisroel lives in Eretz Yisroel. However, when we say “us” referring to the portion of Am Yisroel that does live in Eretz Yisroel, we do in fact mean “us”. They are our brethren. This is fact #1. Fact #2 is that, were Eretz Yisroel to come under Arab control ch”v, the danger to our brethren would not in any way dissipate. Yes, they are after control of the land and state, but they are also after our blood.

Okay, one question for Hakatan, and one question for Just Emes:

Hakatan, do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

“Regardless of any disagreements between the non-religious and religious Jews in Israel regarding mandatory Army Service for Talmudic and Yeshiva students – I feel compelled to state categorically: That every Jew must have “Hakaras Hatov,” “a recognition of thanks” for any soldier (no matter what level of observance or non-observance they might have) who puts his life on the line to protect and save members of the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.

And Just Emes, agree or disagree:

“Regardless of any disagreements between the non-religious and religious Jews in Israel regarding mandatory Army Service for Talmudic and Yeshiva students – I feel compelled to state categorically: That every Jew must have “Hakaras Hatov,” “a recognition of thanks” for any Torah scholar who delves into his studies, because Torah study serves to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.

Just Emes:

Your post did not live up to your namesake, as I indicated.

Since you brought a chazal, I’ll also bring one: Chazal mention that biYimos haMashiach, the Romans will claim “look at the bathhouses we built (that the Jews used)”. Yet Hashem will not accept that argument.

Of course, we have the Satmar Rav’s famous mashal of the arsonist who begins burning down a complex and then goes to get a fire truck and wants to be seen as a hero for doing so. The answer to him, like the Zionists, is, of course, that he shouldn’t have started the fire in the first place.

DaasYochid:

I wrote that “..from the enemies who wish to destroy us” is incorrectly phrased as it is more accurately “…from the enemies who wish to destroy Israel/them”.

As well, I don’t see why a non-Israeli should have hakaras HaTov to an IDF soldier, certainly not more so than an Israeli should have hakaras HaTov to, say, a French soldier who protects the lives of Jews in, say, France.

Israel, however, has a problem that, say, France does not have; Israel’s very existence is against the Torah and any support of Israel is de facto, if not de jure, going against the Torah. No such issue exists with France.

See my points to JE in this post, please.

The bottom line is the A”Z of Zionism causes people to improperly adore the IDF, which happens to also be the engine of shmad for the State of Israel and Zionism, and has them confuse Israel’s enemies as “our” enemies. “We” are not Zionists.

@Hakatan

so arvus means nothing to you? according to your logic you shouldn’t have any hakaras hatov to hatazala in america if you live in Eretz Yisroel because they don’t help you personally out. Seems kind of interesting to me.

jbaldy:

There is a difference between arvus and hakaras haTov.

Arvus means you daven for the people living there, not worship their idols.

DaasYochid:

I’m sorry you’re unimpressed.

But I think that sentiment should be reserved for your own arguments. Do I really think Hamas doesn’t want to destroy Jews outside Eretz Yisrael? What does Hamas care about anything outside Eretz Yisrael? Even if they did care, their fight is certainly not with any country other than Israel. What are you talking about?

As to jbaldy, please see my answer above.

Just Emes:

I recall the thread from which you copy and pasted that whole post from. I presume you felt it would be better for me to repeat myself rather than copy my own responses in that thread.

Regardless, what comes out from your post is as follows:

There is nobody of note who seriously believes that the Zionists had a halachic right to found their State.

(Even the Zionists know that they had, AT BEST, a 50/50 chance of succeeding, viHaRaaya, look at what it took. So the pikuach nefesh alone would have been reason to not declare the State, even without the issue of the oaths.)

Even if your mistaken cheshbon regarding the UN was correct, which it is factually not, that would only cover the oath of being oleh biChoma.

It doesn’t mention that the Zionists took land which they were forbidden to take, like “West Jerusalem”. The UN intended that to be an international city, and it likely would have become an international city had the Zionists not brazenly chosen to go on the offensive and attack and try to conquer the Jerusalem, at which point they brought the Jordanians into the war and further sakana that this entailed. But that part was definitely biChoma and against the will of the nations.

But it would anyways NOT cover the oath of being madchik haKeitz, of having sovereignty before Mashiach, even with full permission, or even coercion to do so, of every single gentile on the planet.

So that’s anyways a non-starter.

Regarding this “B”D of Klal Yisrael”, you are grossly misunderstanding this.

As the Brisker Rav stated, the reason the state came into being is that Jews in Meah Shearim davened for the State instead of Mashiach and, as the poster there quoted Rav Weintraub, because the “B”D of Klal Yisrael” paskened that the State should come into action, EVEN THOUGH THEY PASKENED INCORRECTLY!

The Brisker Rav and the others held, and this is clear in hindsight, that this “B”D” was wrong in their pask, rationale, and hashkafa.

Psak: It was and is assur to have founded that State. Nothing to talk about.

Rationale: if you look at that “HaPardes”, the “B”D”‘s “support” for a State was CONDITIONAL on the following two items (at least those two, as I recall), none of which were kept by the Zionists:

1 – The State would be established peacefully and with no bloodshed.

2 – The State would not interfere with religious matters.

So their rationale was disproven.

Hashkafa: Their assumption was that since politically it seemed like the State was going to happen that they might as well go along for the ride. As the Brisker Rav noted, Hashem doesn’t look at what Reshaim do; but he does look at what Tzaddikim do.

And since these Tzaddikim paskened there should be a State (albeit conditionally), Hashem fulfilled their psak – with the disastrous results that we have seen, R”L L”A.

As I wrote in that post, the Zionists have no answers.

@HaKatan

Who said anything about worshiping them (I know I didn’t). They provide a valuable service for Jews in a shver matzav whether they got themselves there in the first place or not is irrelevant. That in my mind should warrant hakaras hatov.

DassYochid has pretty much said everything else I feel about the subject so I don’t feel the need to elaborate.

jbaldy:

I disagree; it is relevant.

Regardless, do French soldiers not provide a similar service to the Jews in France? Where is your hakaras haTov to those soldiers? Why is the IDF any different in this regard?

Are you makir tov to every person who has done anything for any Jew anywhere? This is ridiculous. Or Avoda Zara. Whichever you pick…

Are you makir tov to every person who has done anything for any Jew anywhere? This is ridiculous. Or Avoda Zara

it is very hard to take seriously anyone who can utter this line and mean it. Your knowledge about the truth of zionism seems only to be surpassed by your deficiency in knowing how to express yourself in a way that respects other Jews, even when you can’t respect their ways.

@HaKatan

Actually yes we should be makir tov to everyone who saves jewish lives. I am sorry that seems like such a difficult concept to you. Al achas kama vkama if that person is actually Jewish.

You are creating a straw man here. If a french soldier was actively saving a Jew in a shver matzav of course I would have hakaras hatov for him. For example, lets say we have a French soldier who saved Jews in the holocaust would you go ranting about how its all the French’s fault for getting themselves there in the first place and that we don’t owe him hakaras hatov ?

Assaf – I think it is very sad if you decide to read a handful of poster’s up and back and take any offense. There are other posters supporting you and hundreds of real life people supporting you.

Whether or not their hashkofos are right, there are more appropriate ways of having a discussion. But you really need to find a way to focus on more productive conversations or find real life people who can speak to you in real time. Pulling out these people and using them as an excuse to write the rest of us off means there are things that need to be worked through. Been there, done that.

Thank you for putting yourself on the line.

Assaf, please don’t misunderstand this discussion, which is academic.

I wish you G-d’s help to do good for His children, and may you always return home safely and complete in mind and body.

Everyone: Arguing with HaKatan over this is pointless. He has his misguided views and we won’t change them. After 120 when he’s punished for all the sinas chinam he’s caused, maybe he’ll finally see the error of his ways.

One note about the members of the IDF: R’ Shlomo Zalman zt”l used to go daven on Har Hertzel, because he said the graves of Israeli soldiers are kivrei tzaddikim.

Who cares if the state was founded be’issur or be’heter? What’s the nafka mina? If it’s beheter you must say hallel on Yom Ha’Atzma’us but if it was be’isur it’s assur? If it’s behter you must ignore all the religious problems with the state but if it’s be’issur you must ignore all the good it does for Yiddishkeit (like funding yeshivos and opening up the borders of Eretz Yisroel for Jews worldwide)? If it’s be’issur you must join Neturei Karta and support Arabs who want to turn the Land of Israel into an Arab state?

I dunno, I think this argument is theoretical at best. Whether be’issur or beheter, the state is here. The question is what do we do now? And the answer is, whatever is best of Klal Yisroel, regardless of how the state was founded. It’s time to stop arguing about the past with an argument that has absolutely no practical ramifications, and start focusing on the future, how can we influence the current state of events to benefit Klal Yisroel?

DaMoshe:

What sinas chinam? I don’t understand.

(cont.)

Just the pikuach nefesh problem alone, without the issues of the oaths and the kefira in emuna, is enough to have forbid founding the state.

But the oaths definitely were violated:

1 – There was no permission by all goyim to found the State, specifically the native Arabs and the British as well;

2 – The Zionists fought an offensive war to take more than they were originally allowed by the UN

3 – Any necessity for war makes the founding of the State violate the oath of being oleh biChoma, which even that alleged Meshech Chachma that the Zionists try to distort does not permit.

The Zionists have no answers.

HaKatan,

In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.

I think you are giving these anti-Semites too much credit. I would argue that the State of Israel is more of an excuse for their hatred rather than a reason. Their behavior would be the same regardless of what the IDF does. Anti-Semitism was worse in general before the State of Israel was founded than after. What was the excuse then? After the Holocaust, “traditional” anti-Semitic behavior has become culturally unacceptable, so mainstream haters are cloaking their actions under the guise of fighting apartheid. We can also see anti-Semitism creeping in under the banners of other “liberal” causes, such as bris mila and women’s rights.

As such, I think that religious debates regarding Judaism, Zionism, and the State of Israel should remain “internal” among Jews, and we shouldn’t worry so much about what the non-Jewish Israel haters think.

Avram: I never said he wants someone to get hurt. But he does speak lashon hara and motzi shem ra about millions of Jews on a regular basis, and one day he will have to answer for that. He has spoken motzi shem ra about me many times, and until he apologizes and asks for forgiveness, I will not forgive him.

DY: He makes it personal every time he calls every “Zionist” and “MO” Ovdei Avodah Zarah.