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(FTR: I have taken to calling YCT rabbis “Mrs.” This is not meant as a slight; rather, I am respecting their desire for equality with women. Since I cannot call females “rabbi”, I reach equality by calling them “Mrs.”)
There has been a flurry of activity recently within some ultra-Orthodox circles to try to declare that elements of the Orthodox community are no longer part of the Orthodox world. This exclusion has focused particularly on those who identify with the term Open Orthodox. However, the values and traditions of our Masoret declare starkly that no one has the authority or the religious standing to write someone out of Orthodoxy.
Values and traditions of our masoret? Show me where it says it in the shulchan aruch. Since when do you hold of values and traditions of our masoret?
To those who say, citing an evolutionary understanding of the idea of ostracism…
lol, how about an evolutionary understanding of you’re so full of yourself that you can’t even write an editorial in normal english without trying to show how much smarter and more educated than us plebians you are. I particularly love how this was in a paragraph preaching humility. Maybe they should teach how to be a normal person, in Rhodes Scholar school.
would say in response: It is chutzpah to think that any of the religious leaders of today are greater than the great sages in the days of the Second Temple.
Would those be the same sages you criticize for being sexist and bigoted against homosexuals? Or the ones who you who brought barbaric sacrifices? And we mustn’t forget their ignorance about the world.
True, there have been heretics and disbelievers throughout Jewish history. But we should not be the ones to determine who is in and who is out.
With all disrespect, you are trying to avoid the issue. The question is not who is in and who is out, but which ideas are in and which ideas are out. And one needn’t open windows into souls to find it. Which brings us to–
a notion that there is indeed an objective judging authority who can open windows in men’s souls.
I think you just denied G-d. Good work! (You probably meant to put the word human in there somewhere, but they apparently don’t teach the distinction between man and G-d in Rhodes Scholar school.)
Rabban Gamliel instituted this blessing in the daily Amidah payer: “May destruction and deprivation come to the heretics [“Velamalshinim”]
Don’t you imagine those terms had some secondary meaning in his time? Otherwise, why would anyone label themselves a rasha? Weren’t they obviously referring to a certain definition? Do they teach critical thinking in Rhodes Scholar school?
Should Open Orthodoxy be expelled because it believes in learning Torah from all Jews, with all Jews and from the broader world?
If you thought you were making good points, you wouldn’t need to set up strawmen. It should be expelled because it doesn’t believe in the authority of the mesorah and halacha.
I must take issue with you referring to him as Mrs. That is totally inappropriate.
Ms. is much more appropriate. (If it were Mrs. you know they would not have included his picture in the Yated)
“Should Open Orthodoxy be expelled because it believes in learning Torah from all Jews…… and from the broader world?”
Learning torah from the broader world? What happened to Maggid Divarav LiYackov, Chukav Umishpatav Liyisroel, Lo Asa Kein Likul Goy, Umishpatim Bal Yidaum.
Nisht: I thought you were going to say that calling him Mrs. is disrespectful to our Nashim Tzidkanios!!
I might take an issue with the knocking of an individual, even someone who violates halacha. We have specific guidance on how to address those who commit aveiros. For many, we have the mitzvah of ???? ?????. Even here, I have been appalled with the public statements that are often made by persons of stature and in the media. But the ideologies that are being advanced and publicized that counter halacha richly deserve the distinction and challenge by the leadership of the frum community. We desperately need to call a spade a spade. If this leadership recognizes these “movements” as inconsistent with Torah value and halacha, then they have the obligation to say so.
???? ????? ??? ??????.
“(FTR: I have taken to calling YCT rabbis ‘Mrs.’ This is not meant as a slight; rather, I am respecting their desire for equality with women. Since I cannot call females ‘rabbi’, I reach equality by calling them “Mrs.”)”
YCT rabbis are not looking for “equality with women”. They want to expand women’s ritual participation insofar as halacha allows. Not the same thing at all. By the way, if you want to “respect” someone, call him by what he calls himself or asks you to call him, not your own appellation based on what you think his identity is.
As much as I disagree with many of the goals and ideas of YCT, I would not call those affiliated with Chovevei “ovrei aveirah” and I certainly don’t think that leitzanus at their expense is appropriate in any way. Some of your comments were funny, but they were misdirected. What is your goal here? Are you just trying to make a funny joke? Make a joke about something else; you have plenty of material. Are you trying to make a serious critique of Chovevei? Then do it in a serious– and respectful– way.
Incidentally, here is a quote from an article Rabbi Lopatin published a year and a half ago:
PBA: The line between making fun of Ovrei Aveirah and being Mevazeh someone who doesn’t deserve it is thin. Tread carefully.
I appreciate when Popa posts these threads.
Sometimes I read stuff that comes out of the YCT/Hadar etc camp, and I know intuitively that it is hashkafically misguided, but can’t put into words what exactly is wrong with it to stand up for it, whether by writing a comment or saying something to the person who sent me the literature.
Thank you, Popa, for making it explicit and enabling people to respond effectively to attacks on Torah and mesorah.
PBA: I’m not saying it is. But when you lump together everyone who ever goes to YCT you end up a lot, lot closer to that line.
Torah: I don’t think anyone who knows what they are ever had a Hava Amina to think that Hadar is anywhere close to Frum.
Sam2: Not to go off topic, but I lump them all together because frankly, the women I’ve met from Hadar/Drisha were interchangeable frumkeit wise with those in YCT. And they say the same things.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck but isn’t counted in a minyan, still a duck imho.
PBA: I think you’re pretty funny. But why limit your humor to YCT-related satire? The jokes get a little repetitive and boring, especially since you’re the one always telling them. How about making fun of “frum” s*x abusers? Or the few kanoim in beit shemesh that spat on girls, or the guy who spit on an Israeli female soldier for sitting in the front of a mehadrin bus? Or rock thowers on shabbos, or husbands that refuse gets? I could go on… YCT aren’t the only ovrei aveirah, so why not spread the leitzonus love?
PBA: Post the link to threads where you make fun of those people, because from what I can tell you overwhelmingly make fun of YCT and not about anyone else. Sounds hypocritical to me.
no one else agrees with YCT except their musmachim, rebbeim, and families. Why do you feel so defensive against them? We here all know they are wrong.
Soldier spitter: aveirahs committed: where is his kavod habriyos? He also ignored “dah mah shetashiv leapikores” – cuz the kanoi just spit, instead of using his seichel. If this guy is a Talmid Chacham, he shamed the Torah. Now Israelis look at him and say all Torah learners spit on their brave soldiers. Shame.
Rationalfrummie
You can choose to make fun of molesters but there’snothing funny about the topic. These people are deeply ill. Their whole mind is warped. They don’t want to be that way. Although I have no mercy on someone who ruins someone else’s life, I still understand that they molesters are also suffering. Many times they become this way because of the cycle of abuse where somebody close to them abused when they were young. Its a complicated topic. Not as joking matter.
WIY: if molesters really are suffering, they should get help instead of taking it out on kids who have done nothing wrong.
rationalfrummie
You are right. Most of them have struggled with their desires. They wish that they could change, but they are not able to do it by themselves. They all know that child molesters are hated and despised by society and they believe that no one could really understand their situation. Many know they need help but don’t have the courage to seek it.
Although many molesters would really like to talk to someone, they also know there are many reasons to not talk about their feelings and actions. They believe they have everything to lose if they confess. They risk losing their marriage, their children, their home, their friends, their job, and their freedom. They fear embarrassment and humiliation. They are afraid of how the interviewer is going to react to them if and when they make that first admission of guilt. And child molesters fear going to prison. They have heard and read stories about what happens to child molesters in prison.
“I lump them all together because frankly, the women I’ve met from Hadar/Drisha were interchangeable frumkeit wise with those in YCT. And they say the same things.”
I know a lot of people affiliated with all three of these institutions and anecdotally, I don’t find that to be true at all. There is some, but not much, hashkafic overlap between Hadar and YCT. Drisha is an entirely different group.
Torah: In Hadar, women count for a Minyan.
I thought you were calling them Maharat- http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/maharat-avi-weiss
Maharat l’mineihu u’min habehaima l’mina mikoil remes ho’adama l’mineihu…
So much minnus
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