Protesting Same-Gender Marriage in New Jersey

Marriage is an economic relationship involving sharing property and mutal liability for debts (and joint and several responsibility for raising children). There is nothing in halacha about two men, or two women, or any other numbers, entering into contracts to share property, being jointly and severally liable for their debts, and to share a household.

If we get too upset about what goyin and frei Jews do in bed, we’ll be very upset. Our objection to gays (not to mention “straights” who reject conventional marriage) is not a function of economics and contracts.

According to Jewish tradition, the people in Sodom got in trouble for their social welfare policies (and being perverts in public policy matters, carried it over to their private affairs). It is the Christians who hold that their “sin” had to do with anything sexual. What the Christians called “unnatural” and referred to as “sodomy”, we call “not according to her way” (and has nothing to do with Sodom).

To clarify: When I say pro gay rights I mean pro the fact that it is legal. I personally think it is an outright immoral and a pure abomination.

I am absolutely sickened by same sex marriage. But at the same time, I understand that my disgust over it comes solely from the Torah. If I weren’t Jewish, or even frum, I would probably be pro same gender marriage, even if I would find it nauseating, simply because I would probably be pro-equality. That being said, I can’t find fault with people who are pro gay marriage as I would probably be one myself if I didn’t have the Torah. And since they don’t have the Torah to guide them, how can I impose my religious beliefs on them?

In addition, it doesn’t seem like there is any legal basis to stop it. The main argument is that it is immoral… but who decided morality? If the government has the ability to decide what is and what isn’t moral (assuming no one is being hurt), what’s stopping them from deciding that something that we do as religious Jews is immoral (like Bris Milah)? And since the protests seem to have no basis in US secular law, I think our protests would be looked down upon and seen as a joke.

In conclusion, I detest gay marriage and I wish it wouldn’t be legal… but you won’t find me in public protesting, just praying to G-d that somehow it will end.

Marriage is more than an economic relationship. Do me a favor and call those gay unions something else. ??? ?????, anyone?

;

We and others opposed to this are unfortunatly a minority so there’s nothing we can do to stop it. What is common in the general population as far as relationships between men an women is also contrary to our values. We must stengthen our resolve not to be influenced by what’s around us and stand apart.

Kollel Wife- will your family unit be broken down by it?

You can’t protest what other people do in their most private relationships. Some people think that infant circumcision is barbaric? But you know what, people have a zone of privacy how to run their own life. Don’t do it for yourself and you’ll be fine. And don’t tell me about living in a society without morals, the goyim, lower, blah blah blah. In the U.S., Jews get to leave work early on Friday and now gays can marry each other. That’s how it is.

jf02, yet for those other toeivas they person didnt get, you know, stoned to death. So theres a very large difference in severity in this toeiva and others like kashrus. And we should oppose kashrus and other toeiva violations as well.

Although the current mainstream seems to have endorsed immorality across the board, I think that our relative silence about it is, mostly, frustration about how things like this have been going the last few years. It is my prediction that no serious candidate for President of any party will ever again oppose same-sex marriage, or a host of other moral losses because they will stand no chance of winning.

What I would observe is that the talking that goes on during davening (including by Roshei Yeshiva, etc.) indicates very strongly that we’re not paying the attention we need to to what we say to Hashem. Perhaps it’s mida kneged mida that he’s not paying attention to our lip service for His Torah in regard to the moral issues of our time.

I heard a shiur on this by Rabbi Wallerstein a while ago. Iforgot most of the shiur, I only remember this one line-

Gay people are soldiers in a war against Hashem…

I am terrified because homosexuality is what made Hashem destroy the world in the times of Noach. And I am crying for Hashem because He gives everyone so much good and look, a war is being waged against Him and we’re just saying,” we wont be able to change anything…” or other pointless stuff like that.

“If we get too upset about what goyin and frei Jews do in bed, we’ll be very upset. “

It does seem to be a losing political issue. The right wing Republican who is running for Governor of Virginia tried to bring back Virginia’s sodomy prohibitions and he is now down by 17 points in the Republican-biased Rasmussen poll.

I have no problem with same gender marriage i just dont.

>> Lost1970- Look into it, it’s not so simple. Due to the

>> way many meat plants are run, the meat is technically

>> ever min hachai, since it is separated before the

>> animal is completely dead.

Ouch! Where have you read about it?

Charlie:

It is disingenuous to compare a politician’s polytheism with society’s normalization of same-gender marriage.

Same-gender “marriage” is thoroughly amoral, and affects everyone, whereas an individual’s practice of idolatry does not, and certainly not anywhere close to how same-gender marriage affects everyone.

Also, unlike a previous poster’s claim, marriage is not merely a state-sanctioned financial process.

Marriage affects children and custody of those children. It is plain to any objective person that a child needs a father and mother, not two of either one. It is similarly obvious that, barring extreme and unusual circumstances, a child needs the child’s biological father and biological mother.

Same-gender marriage is a terrible mess for children. The chutzpah of any society to allow this is appalling. That any Jew could condone this is even more so.

In addition to the severe impact on children, same-gender marriage also, as one of its goals, “normalizes” this toeiva. Since a person is, to at least some extent, the product of the society in which he lives (even if he is in as insular Jewish society), this societal recognition of same-gender marriage as “normal” is an attitude which will, CH”V, seep into our own culture as well.

The problem with fighting gay marriage, is we should have started it long ago. Where were we when divorce was allowed according to law for ridiculous reasons? Why wasn’t cheating made into a punishable offense? How could we have allowed premarital relations. No my friends, this battle is over. We stayed neutral during most of the war, so how can we protest now when the state’s legal marriages do not resemble our religious ones anymore?

On another half related note, as much of an abomination as it is, how can we judge anyone with this teivah? I don’t hear any religious folk standing up and saying, “I am gay, but I choose to marry the opposite gender.” I don’t think our culture will be able to see it as a choice, until we somehow show them it is.

writersoul- well said

I am curious to know why there are people on this thread who believe that non jews can’t have homosexual relationships. Source?

I am not a rabbi, but my understanding of why non-Jews cant have homosexual relationships is because Noach’s generation weren’t Jewish, yet when homosexuality was legalized, Hashem destroyed the world. If it happened then it can happen now.

Karagnostic – homosexual relations are explicitly forbidden to gentiles. See Rambam Hilchot Melachim uMilchamot 9:5. If I’m not mistaken they could possibly even be chayav mitah.

Also check out Rashi on Bereshit 6:2, and the Meam Loez towards the end of Bereshit and his discussion of Sodom in Vayeira. Keep in mind these sources are discussing non-Jews.

writersoul – it doesn’t make a difference if the majority of society accepts this as ok or that there isn’t much chance of being able to make a difference. That’s the whole point of hishtadlus – you do whatever is in your ability and you leave the rest up to Hashem. It’s not ok to say, “the economy is in a slump with record levels of unemployment and parnassa is just too hard so I’m going to give up.” You have to do whatever hishtadlus you can to make a living in addition to then trusting Hashem will provide you with whatever is fitting. Even if the job market stinks you still have to write up a resume and at least give it a try. Here too – Hashem has granted you the hishtadlus options of voting and using your right to free speech to try and influence the public. Even though the odds are slim in your favor and it’s up to Hashem at the end of the day, why not at least do what you can seeing as He has given you a chance? Nobody is expecting you to start up a one man revolution but at least do something.

This is perhaps the underlying point I was trying to get across in my comment but perhaps I should have just come out and said it m’furash: people have the opportunity to take some sort of steps hishtadlus-wise but they don’t. They instead make the claims that either it’s not really so bad (or even bad at all) or there’s no point to trying to do anything. However this is entirely untrue, it IS that bad and you DO have the chance to do SOMETHING even if you don’t have a great chance of succeeding. However people lie to themselves because it is much more comfortable than facing the truth that Hashem put something in the Torah and I could frankly care less about it. Perhaps this isn’t the case with everyone but I have a strong feeling it applies to many if not most.

what’s in a name – nobody is advocating going in to people’s private bedrooms and monitoring what goes on there… don’t be ridiculous. What we are speaking about here is the government legally sanctioning a type of public relationship which inherently implies societal acceptance if not approval. As a member of that society with a chance to put in your two cents, by choosing to go with the flow you are using your voice to support such behavior. You yourself have expressed you don’t understand why some people feel it is so important but the fact of the matter is the Torah is very clear on this issue – you don’t have a problem with the opinions of some frum Jews, you have a problem with the Torah.

whats in a name – from a Torah perspective there is absolutely no comparison whatsover between two people of a different race marrying each other and two men “marrying” each other. There isn’t any issur in the Torah amongst Jews or non-Jews for two people with different colored skin to marry each other. For two men to have relations with each other, even if both aren’t Jewish, is one of the biggest issurim out there. One is a case of a clear and obvious Torah prohibition, the other is just simple racism.

To try and compare these cases is a fallacy – they aren’t even in the same moral ballpark. I truly don’t mean this to be in an insulting manner but if you really don’t think there is a moral problem with homosexuality then are you a religious Jew? If not then for the sake of not confusing other readers here maybe you should explain that cleary.

WIAN – That’s a cute drasha about sinat chinam but halachikly speaking there is most certainly room to classify homosexual relations as one of the biggest issurim. There are only three categories of sin that one is obligated to give up their life rather than commit and sinat chinam ain’t one of them. However arayot is. And of the list of arayot, homosexual relations is one of the most chamur because it is not even a sin most normal people want to partake in. The gemera (Gittin I believe) says that a slave ship was taking Jewish boys and girls back to Rome for forced prostitution and the girls all jumped off the ship and drowned themselves rather than suffer that fate. The boys then made a kal v’chomer and said that if the girls gave their life rather than commit a sin that is natural, how much more so should we give our lives rather than do a sin that is unnatural and they all drowned themselves as well.

As far as the dor hamabul – learn up your Chazal. Despite the sinfulness of the generation Hashem didn’t decree destruction on them until they legally sanctioned homosexual and beastial marriages. The theft between them is simply what sealed the deal but gay and animal marriage is what brought about the decree itself.

You don’t need to take it upon yourself to convince anyone whether gay marriage is moral or how Hashem feels about it – He has already done that for us quite explicitly in the Torah. What I can’t figure out is how there is even a sheila?

You are correct that things such as dishonesty in business are reprehensible. The reason nobody organizes protests against it is that it’s not practical to make a protest for every sin in the world. And so to we don’t make protests against homosexuality – have you ever in your life heard of a Jewish protest against people stam being gay? Nobody is suggesting that. This thread started in the first place because people are rising up and trying to get the government to legally sanction this sin and state that the government as mandated democractially by the people think that it’s ok. THAT is what the protest was being suggested about. Not that there are gay people, but that they want the government to officially state it’s acceptable and that just as they are advocating their rights to further their morality and cause, we as Torah Jews should also use that same right to stand up and voice our objection.

Let’s take your example – sleazy business. It happens and we don’t organize protests because it’s somewhat just an unfortunate part of life. However, were a group of people to actually have the gumption to petition the government to make sleazy business legal wouldn’t it also be appropriate for Torah Jews to stand up and oppose such legislation?

You seem to have a problem with what you perceive as judging other people. I agree with you – it’s not necessarily our place to judge them. Thank G-d I’m not gay but that’s not to say I don’t have my own personal truckload full of aveirot and yeter haras do deal with. Therefore it’s not mine, or any other person’s place to judge somebody for what must be an unthinkably hard challenge to overcome. But that isn’t what’s being discussed. What we are discussing isn’t the individual’s actions but society itself taking something that is wrong and trying to say its right – especially when we have a chance to voice our opinion and disagree. It’s one thing to say that we all have our own challenges and yetzer hara to deal with and if somebody fell into something I’m not going to judge him because that is his personal test from Hashem. It is something else entirely to take an act blatently prohibited and despised by Hashem and try to say it’s now fine and dandy.

writersoul, I think assurnet was responding to the poster who made ridiculous comparisons and brought up non-sensical points. Not to you.

I don’t know if those comparisons are a laughing matter or a crying matter. Very sad.

Writersoul – when I was responding to you I tried to list your name… the majority of my responses have been the “what’s in a name” and not to you

Sharp – “I don’t know if those comparisons are a laughing matter or a crying matter. Very sad.”

Well said. You know, I think it’s a little ironic that people are trying to suggest Jews are insulated enough that a society which accepts gay marriage wouldn’t have an influence on them – yet on a forum of a website like Yeshiva News there are posters saying they don’t even think there is anything with it in the first place. Let’s forget about the potential influence it could have… has anyone stopped to think of how much influence it ALREADY has had?

Charlie, While it is true that no religious test is required for the Presidency or any other national office and that, in theory a Wikken or a Zoroastrian could be President, I don’t see how you apply that to the current Office holder. President Obama claims to be a Christian and a Protestant to boot. He has been accused of being a secret Moslem. I am not aware that either of those two persuasions are polytheistic.

This thread is making me sick! Without mentioning names, I just want to point out that this website is called theYESHIVAworld. Not the antireligousworld. With this information in mind, I think some people should reevaluate whether they belong on this website or not.

Redleg: The fact that Protestants aren’t polytheists is a myth. Unitarians don’t believe in the trinity. According to almost everyone (basically except the Rema), even Protestants are Ovdei Avodah Zarah.