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September 9, 2013 1:18 am at 1:18 am #610543simcha613Participant
How can we reconcile the ???? of many (including myself) to not wear a gartel during davening with the ????? ????? The ????? ???? seems pretty explicit (???? ???? ?:?- and the ??”? doesn’t seem to argue) that one should wear a belt for ????? for the purposes of “????” (which I think means for the purpose of preparation and having something special for ?????) and that this belt should be worn even of the person already has a belt and his ?? does not see his ????.
September 9, 2013 4:16 am at 4:16 am #973477Sam2ParticipantOur pants our different than theirs and, assuming that they’re Muttar to wear Bichlal, count for this.
That aside, we are Yotzei Hikon by putting on a hat/jacket/tie/something else special for the Tefillah.
September 9, 2013 11:52 am at 11:52 am #973478simcha613Participant1. I misquoted the source- it’s actually ??:?.
2. The ????? ???? says that this belt is required even if one’s ?? does not see his ????, like if he’s already wearing a belt… so why should it matter what kind of pants we have?
3. The ????? ???? seems to say specifically that we have a requirement “????? ????” because of ????. I don’t think he means you could be ???? this with anything special. I’m not denying that there are other ????? that explain ???? the way you did, I just find it strange that the ???? follows a ???? ???? over the ????? ???? (and presumably the ??”? as well since he doesn’t argue).
September 9, 2013 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #973479Jersey JewParticipant“The ????? ???? seems to say specifically that we have a requirement “????? ????” because of ????. I don’t think he means you could be ???? this with anything special. I’m not denying that there are other ????? that explain ???? the way you did, I just find it strange that the ???? follows a ???? ???? over the ????? ???? (and presumably the ??”? as well since he doesn’t argue).”
I have heard from an adom chashuv that since we, for the most part, dont wear hats & jackets all day, putting on a hat & jacket is considered ???? for tfilla purposes. If you normally wear a hat & jacket, then you would need something else.
September 9, 2013 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #973480HaLeiViParticipantThis is the Shita of Rabbeinu Yeruchem. Rashi held that the Gartel is for Libo Ro’eh although he wore one anyhow. When Rashi once recited Krias Shema without a gartel he explained to his Talmid that our clothing doesn’t really need it. This is in the Shiltei Hagiborim on the Mordechai in Shabbos third Perek (IIRC).
However, we do find that the Medrash, which Rashi brings, on Hasachas Elokim Anochi uses the term His’azer for Tefilla. It seems like it is more than just an expression of some Hachana. The Bach discusses this and mentions that everyone wears one.
It probably went out the window when at one stage modern clothing came in. It is certainly not something Chasidim started. It is something they didn’t drop.
September 9, 2013 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #973481Sam2ParticipantThey wore tunics that had no type of Eizor. So that is lacking something Mechubad that you would greet a king with. Nowadays, our clothes have belts or elastics or separate shirts and pants so the difference in the clothing is clear. For whatever reason you need a have an Eizor. Our clothes probably meet that requirement anyway.
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