Women of the Wall (WoW)

There isn’t. The issur is on making a spectacle of oneself in the false claims that it is in order to serve Hashem, when clearly it is only to serve one’s own ego. They are putting on the tefillin and Talleisim in a public place that the men need to be separate in order to daven. They are doing it for publicity and to break down our traditions. They admit this.

WoW also wants to sing their prayers by the Kosel (Kol Isha) and read from a Torah scroll and say Kaddish and count women in a Minyan.

Their agenda is “women’s equality” in Judaism.

oomis, before 1967 there were no mechitzos at the Kotel.

In addition, the women today are behind a mechitza when they wear their tallis and tefillin, so your points don’t concern the men.

The WOW should not be confused with the reform. The WOW do not want mixed davening. They just want to wear a tallis in the lady’s section.

Whether you agree with them or not, I don’t know why people would forbid it. It’s very dangerous to restrict a minority’s opinion just because you don’t like it. I don’t like people changing the nusach and sayinh Keser instead of Naaritzicha, but I won’t make it illegal.

Playtime: Their admitted goal is to “liberate” the Kosel from its Mechitzah (the leaders, at least). Unfortunately, there are some women who think like you (and just want to wear Tefillin to volunteer an extra Mitzvah, but which isn’t entirely unproblematic) and have been swept in together with these M’sisim Um’dichim (M’sisos Um’dichos?). The act is not inherently evil. The goal is. If they would have their Davening farther down the wall where it wasn’t meant to antagonize, no one would care (well, some people would, but a lot less). But they won’t do that because their goal is to make a public show and to still the Kosel from everyone else who wants it to stay as it was.

Truthsharer: If what you said about WOW was true then there would be a lot fewer problems with them. Unfortunately, the exact opposite of what you said it true. They are M’sisim Um’dichim and deserve nothing but scorn and mocking from us. (Throwing dirty diapers is Assur, by the way, because you are Machshil many people by having dirty diapers in a Makom Tefilah.)

If Rashi’s daughter ever wore tefillin (and I’ve never seen any credible source for this) it probably would have been Rabbeinu Tam’s wife – because he held that women should wear tefillin.

I somehow doubt that the WoW care about this though. And none of the poskim follow Rabbeinu Tam’s view on this – even those who put on Rabbeinu Tam tefillin. Besides, the fact that nobody knows for sure if she wore tefillin means that she probably davened at home – not in public.

IC: We have women in the Gemara who put on Tefillin. Arguing that it’s Assur from history doesn’t work.

Truthsharer: Look, the protests might not be the best way to go against them. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are *dead wrong*. It hasn’t been news for decades because they did it differently. They weren’t making a public statement. They were quietly Davening to themselves, in their own little corner, volunteering a Mitzvah at the holiest place they have access to. And no one cared. Because those women were being honest in what they wanted to do and just wanted to Daven. We can make a Sugya over whether or not Tefillin is a Mitzvah that women are allowed to volunteer, but when they weren’t trying to “liberate” the Kosel from its Mechitzah and attack Yiddishkeit, no one bothered them. The history until now and the difference now should show you that these women are trying to destroy our religion and that they are wrong. I’ll agree that there are better ways to fight than throwing diapers. But that doesn’t mean we can take this lying down.

Oh, and the women who want no Mechitzah and/or to wear Tefillin are a much smaller minority than the men and women who just want to Daven like Jews always have.

Truthsharer,

Love your ironic (moronic) name.

The key reason why R Sherer did not talk about protesting gay marriage is because he unfortunately passed away before our society stooped so low as to even consider enacting it as a law.

But your whole argument about these “women” (I guess it is appropriate that you mention gay marriage in connection with this group)that they just want to “daven” and be left alone and leave others alone is a blatant lie. Their self professed mission statement belies that.

You really should do just the minutest smidgen of research before “sharing” your reinvented “truths”.

Gay marriage was being legislated for years before R’ Sherer’s passing. Notice that the Agudah didn’t get involved, and still doesn’t get involved.

It’s not worth to fight something that will happen anyway.

As for the WOW wanting to make a scene, the facts show that to be untrue.

For 20+ years no scene was made until the charedim started to antagonize and create laws banning women from wearing a tallis.

With this, and other issues, the charedim in Israel need to learn to take a chill pill. How would they like it if the majority would start to dictate to them how to act?

If you think women wearing tallis is wrong, then don’t do it. But let them do it in peace. It’s twenty minutes a month for crying out loud.

It’s most certainly not assur. We see that the only reason this is making news is because some charedim like to protest. This mont’s scene was much quieter because there was no organized protest.

Ask yourself, what do you have to gain by protesting, and what do you have to lose by protesting.

I think I may join all the other non-Charedi posters and leave. It seems that if people disagree with your posts or they can’t argue, they just insult and call you names. Being censored and not being able to post is not condusive to a discussion. There are plenty of Jewish discussion boards out there that allow discussion with little moderation of ideology.

take your own chill. We’ve posted all your substantive material. If you can’t win your argument on that, it certainly isn’t the moderators fault.

you all are the reason why there are so many people leaving frumkeit today.

If you had even the slightest inclination towards the truth, you would acknowledge that “we all” are not losing our youth to frumkeit in nearly the same numbers as “you all”.

I can’t imagine what the unedited version of your post looked like.

If you had even the slightest inclination towards the truth

Nor throw a hissy fit and leave, and nor make ridiculous arguments from Jordanian, british mandate, and Ottoman precedent.

Q: What do you call the Women Of The Wall?

A: Walnuts!

I happen to know one of the Brooklyn women behind WOW and can attest to the fact that these women have their own religion and their own agenda. She has a daughter who is a “rabbi” and wears tefillin. I find it odd that they choose to do mitzvos that they are not obligated to observe, yet ignore those which are obligatory.

truthsharer,

The kosel is not a shul.

Actually, it is. After taking Yerushalayim in 1967, the Israelis created the Kosel plaza (there was a narrow alley there before) for the purpose of accommodating prayer. They rushed the construction of this plaza ahead of Shavuos. Furthermore, the government appointed R’ Yehuda Meir Getz and then R’ Shmuel Rabinowitz as the Kosel Rav – to oversee the proceedings that take place there. So the plaza was a space created for Jewish prayer, and a rabbi was appointed to oversee it; sounds like a shul to me. Whether you think making it into a shul was a bad idea or not is irrelevant at this point.

It’s a holy place where people daven

That’s the Orthodox perspective. The Reform movement’s theology denies the concepts of a personal Moshiach and a restoration of the Avodah of the Beis Hamikdash (G-d forbid), and furthermore they hold R”L that the Avodah itself was man-made, archaic, and even barbaric. It seems inconsistent, therefore, that they would view the Kosel or Har Habayis as holy ground. The Conservative movement severely limits mentioning the Avodah and a personal Moshiach in its prayer books.

It seems more likely to me that adherents of Reform Judaism view the Kosel as a place of nationalistic (Jewish or Israeli) significance – similar to the way Americans would view the National Mall.

My shul has existed for fewer than 100 years, but if a group of people attempted to force changes to its customs and practices in defiance of the rav, I would feel upset, even if the shul was also a national landmark.

sam2, and why do you think they made it into a public protest only recently?

Hint, the answer is because the charedim had them arrested for davening with a tallis.

Walled In

Rabbi Moshe Grylak

Tuesday, May 28, 2013

Sorry, copyright violation.

They have been there for about 10 years. Their PR has been a failure

Its alot easier to frame as Rosa Parks when people are spitting and cursing you and shouting at you than when you are alone and noboody notices

actually these wow women have been getting arrested every month for many years. we didnt do anything new. we ha ve been protesting against them for years. and they have been getting arrested for years. the only new thing is that some judge started allowing them to go there with their tefilin/talis and told the police not to arrest them anymore. hence the curren bruhaha.

btw, rav moshe paskened it is assur and against halacha for them to wear tefilin and even a talis.

The WOW should not be confused with the reform. “

While I can appreciate your point, they choose to ALIGN themselves with reform leaders (of course, because what frum person would seek to encourage the Chillul Hashem they have been doing?), so the “confusion” is really not so confused at all.

I think Beruriah also wore tefillin, if I am not mistaken.

If you think women wearing tallis is wrong, then don’t do it.”

I don’t do drugs. it’s wrong. You should not either, because IT’S WRONG, but as long as you break no laws (well that would be difficult since they ARE illegal), I could not stop you from shooting up in private. Many things from which we refrain are wrong; wrong subjectively AND objectively. Something like this that causes public disturbance at the holiest site of the Jews, is no longer a matter of don’t do it yourself if you don’t like it.

It’s a little like smoking. If you smoke where I have to breathe, then you are infringing on my rights, which must take precedence over yours, because I want to be healthy and clearly you don’t. I am not stopping you from smoking in your owen domain. Just don’t bring your poison into the public one.

The group’s mission statement, taken from its own website:

“As Women of the Wall, our central mission is to achieve the social and legal recognition of our right, as women, to wear prayer shawls, pray, and read from the Torah collectively and out loud at the Western Wall.”

Nothing in there about equality, integration, breaking down the mechitza, or creating a spectacle. Anyone who wants to argue that WOW’s central goals are to do those things should be congratulated for his or her miraculous telepathic abilities.

The group’s mission statement, taken from its own website:

“As Women of the Wall, our central mission is to achieve the social and legal recognition of our right, as women, to wear prayer shawls, pray, and read from the Torah collectively and out loud at the Western Wall.”

Nothing in there about equality, integration, breaking down the mechitza, or creating a spectacle. Anyone who wants to argue that WOW’s central goals are to do those things should be congratulated for his or her miraculous telepathic abilities.

Press releases, and interviews, darling.

From the WoW web site:

“Why Nashot Hakotel?

Maybe someone should let these wimmin know that the 1st woman was derived from the rib of a man.

I’m surprised that they didn’t re-spell female as femail.

Hillel and Shammai were ultra-Orthodox Rabbis who debated for the sake of Heaven. None of their debates were about whether women should wear Talis and Tefilin and should sing in front of men.

If WoW is citing what ultra-Orthodox Rabbis did, why are they against Orthodox rules at the Kosel?

The Orthodox Rabbis have passed the Mesora from generation to generation from Sinai, where Moshe Rabbeinu received it from G-d. The rules governing “our life cycle from birth and conversion to death” come from G-d. They do not change in a democracy.

Yes, but there are other quotes from Hoffman where she makes clear that part of their agenda is to make the kosel not orthodox. Try these:

Hoffman:

“today, Women of the Wall liberated the Western Wall for all Jewish people. … We did it for the great diversity of Jews in the world, all of whom deserve to pray according to their belief and custom at the Western Wall.”