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May 1, 2013 6:34 am at 6:34 am #609192VogueMember
Hi, I am currently trying to write an inspirational book for teenagers I don’t want to say what exactly it is about but since I want it to cater to problems that guys and girls have, I was writing an example story about how a bochur would tape cigarettes to the walk in his dorm and then go out and smplease after night Seder. Does this sort of thing happen? The point of this section was to talk about nisyonos for teens. Also, if it does happen, I think it’s critical that we create a yeshiva with beis midrash for buchorim who are recovering drug addicts post rehab so they can get extra therapy while still being in a yeshiva. What do you think?
May 1, 2013 7:00 am at 7:00 am #951291ZachKessinMemberIt is my understanding that there are Yeshivot like that. I have no idea how good they are in terms of learning or in terms of helping in recovery
May 1, 2013 11:39 am at 11:39 am #951292VogueMemberI hear, it’s just that the druggie culture is not OK in a yeshiva.
May 1, 2013 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #951293☕ DaasYochid ☕Participanta bochur would tape cigarettes to the walk in his dorm and then go out and smplease after night Seder.
no capisco
May 1, 2013 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #951294VogueMember*some place and smoke them
May 1, 2013 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #951295Torah613TorahParticipantVogue, what are the incompatibilities between druggie culture and yeshiva?
Plenty of yeshiva guys smoke. Unfortunately.
May 1, 2013 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #951296☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantAre we talking nicotine or marijuana?
May 1, 2013 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #951297gavra_at_workParticipantAre we talking nicotine or marijuana?
Besides for the legal aspects (and the proven power of the American Tobacco industry), why would there be a difference? If anything tobacco would be worse, as long term effects of marijuana are minimal at worst.
May 1, 2013 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #951298☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThe legal aspect is important. It’s a different kind of defiance to buy an illegal substance. Also, the mind altering aspect is important, although in that regard, you could compare alcohol.
It’s hard to say that some of our biggest gedolim were “drug addicts”. The term has a much more negative connotation than the term “heavy smoker”.
May 1, 2013 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #951299gavra_at_workParticipantThe legal aspect is important. It’s a different kind of defiance to buy an illegal substance.
Unless you are under 18, in which case the tobacco is illegal as well.
I hear your point, even though there is no logic behind the law, only politics & special interests.
May 1, 2013 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #951300popa_bar_abbaParticipantIf anything tobacco would be worse, as long term effects of marijuana are minimal at worst.
The mood and mind altering effects are different also, y’know.
May 1, 2013 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #951301gavra_at_workParticipantPBA: Alcohol. DY brought it up. Now the Tzad HaShave is….
May 1, 2013 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #951302VogueMemberResearch time and time again has proven that smoking causes the smoker and second hand smoker to die earlier than a non smoker/ someone who is at minimal- no exposure to second hand smoke.
In fact, every time you see an advertisement, a pack of cigarettes, or something of the like, there is ALWAYS a warning from the surgeon general that says smoking kills and causes death (something along those lines). If research has proven this through leading universities, with the best medical doctors in the world, and, in fact, I believe that our gedolim ban smoking and say it is assur (if not, then they should say that) then there is no reason, at the very least, for a person who has never smoked before to even experiment with it.
Unfortunately, if you go on facebook, there are buchorim who are more chilled and they are stupid enough to post pictures of themselves smoking on facebook. And then what happens when they want to apply to college? Get a job? There are so many institutions that preform background checks regardless of the industry (eepecially teaching!) because they want to make sure that their prospective employee has healthy eating habits and can be a good productive member or society and in the work place.
Therefore, smoking, in the long run, is not compatible with the yeshiva culture at all.
May 1, 2013 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #951303ToiParticipants’all good man.
May 1, 2013 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #951304The little I knowParticipantHere come the liberal voices seeking to minimize and legalize tobacco and marijuana. Phooey!
The dangers of tobacco, including the addiction potential, were not realized fully many years ago. The only reason that it is improper to refer to the tzaddikim of yesteryear as addicted to nicotine is because their self-control was immensely powerful, and they would overcome their withdrawal symptoms by their strong dedication to fulfilling Torah and Mitzvos. The Chofetz Chaim ZT”L was vocal about his opposition to smoking, with direct reference to its addictiveness. All of the liberal voices that contaminate the CR with defenses of open violations of ??????? ??? ????????? have failed to refute the amassed scientific data about the dangers of smoking, even the limited amount of cigarettes.
Weed – here I come. I have investigated this issue for years, and I am familiar with the scientific studies that examine the dangers of THC. There is apparently minimal risk of withdrawal and physical dependency. There also appears to be more reverse tolerance than the straightforward kind which is common to most other drugs. However, its medical adversities are many, long term, and most irreversible. I am excluding medical marijuana from my discussion, as it is a subject of much debate, and is always judged by the professional to balance its need versus the risks. The popularization of the legalize pot movement is akin to the ??? ????. It is accepted, not for its altruistic value, but for its flexibility that allows for one to follow the desires for altered states of mind. And that is inconsistent with everything we know about Torah and Ratzon Hashem. If anyone wonders whether I am labeling any casual use of marijuana an aveiro, I’ll skip the suspense. Yes. It is of unquestionable departure from Avodas Hashem. No I do not represent any body that has a political bias, just some knowledge and experience. I would not pronounce tobacco or marijuana as being ranked in either direction for their dangers. The nature of the effects are different. Comparison and contrast are useless.
May 1, 2013 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #951305EnderParticipantGAW:
In most states it is legal to “use” tobacco products under 18. It is just illegal to sell or supply minors with tobacco, but it is legal for them to use it.
In addition, I am skeptical of studies that say there are minimal long term effects from smoking marijuana. I know too many pot heads whose brains are fried even when they aren’t high to believe that it has little affect.
May 1, 2013 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #951306rationalfrummieMemberVogue- that sounds like a really good idea. I’d go for it.
Personally, I see yeshiva bochurim smoking a lot. It is assur because smoking is sakanas nefesh, plain and simple.
May 1, 2013 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #951307gavra_at_workParticipantThe little I know: I happen to agree with you. We should be treating pot like vicodin, and make tobacco illegal (or punish users by forcing them out of the heath insurance system).
I know too many pot heads whose brains are fried even when they aren’t high to believe that it has little affect.
That is because they are potheads, not because they smoke weed 🙂
May 1, 2013 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #951308popa_bar_abbaParticipantWe should be treating pot like vicodin
We do treat it precisely like vicodin. It is a controlled substance, and only allowed with a prescription. And you can only write a prescription for a use that the FDA determines has a medical benefit, and the FDA has determined that smoking weed has no medical benefit.
The THC however, does have medical benefit and you can get a prescription for pills that contain THC.
May 1, 2013 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #951309EnderParticipantGAW: They are potheads because they smoke weed. They were not pot heads before they started smoking pot.
May 1, 2013 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #951310Torah613TorahParticipantVogue, I have a distant relative who smoked like a chimney, had diabetes, and refused to listen to doctors, who lived to 98.
May 1, 2013 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #951311VogueMemberAlso, in sefer Shmuel, Chana went to the beis hamikdash and when she prayed silently, Eli thought she was drunk, which shows that one can not serve Hashem properly if their state of mind is altered in any way by “artificial” devices such as alcohol, pot or any other mind altering substance.
May 2, 2013 3:17 am at 3:17 am #951312VogueMemberTorah, I never met my grandmother because she died of long cancer when my mother was pregnant with me. My dad would rather smoke than financially support his children. He obviously was not smoking that much unless he started very late in life?
May 2, 2013 3:17 am at 3:17 am #951313VogueMember*Lung
May 2, 2013 4:22 am at 4:22 am #951314HealthParticipantPBA -“and the FDA has determined that smoking weed has no medical benefit.”
And it’s high time we started prosecuting and/or punishing the States that allow smoking weed. Not only should we prosecute the users, but the Gov. for passing a law against Federal law and Not enforcing Federal law.
May 2, 2013 6:39 am at 6:39 am #951315yitz17ParticipantIt is well established that it takes years of smoking to cause cancer and heart disease. Those who get these diseases have all smoked for many years. Almost all yeshiva guys who smoke as bochurim quit within a few years after getting married. This is a fact, and there are almost no guys over 30 in yeshiva that smoke.
So when we talk about yeshiva bochurim smoking we are talking about smoking for a few years, which is not much of a health risk. And if anyone disagrees with this show a single study what was done on those that smoked only a few years and shows how dangerous that is.
May 2, 2013 11:39 am at 11:39 am #951316The little I knowParticipantyitz17:
While it the Chofetz Chaim that makes an issue of starting smoking as being an aveiro because of the dependency, most other poskim focus purely on the medical damage. I refer you to some of the seforim on smoking that address the subject of the single cigarette, quoting the Gedolei Haposkim who are unanimous in declaring the issue involved from even this “minimal” damage. To treat this lightly is irresponsible, and not consistent with halacha.
It is true that stopping smoking can often lead to enough healing of whatever body tissues have been affected. Counting on that as a heter to start is stupid. It is like cutting yourself just because the wound will eventually heal. So the notion of bochurim being allowed to take up smoking on the smach they will later quit is immature, medically foolish, and against halacha.
May 2, 2013 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #951317rebdonielMemberThe entire “medical marijuana” business is a fraud; in any state where it’s been implemented, there has been massive misuse. Any “regulations” are a joke.; people feign any symptoms to get pot, just as they do disability, such as anxiety or depression.
Our country is heading down a road to perdition.
May 2, 2013 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #951318HaLeiViParticipantRebDoniel, any time you change a rule there will be a balooning effect right away. In order to really know how things work you have to study a place that had such laws in place for a while.
While smoking is not healthy and is irresponsible, the effect is long term and down the road. You can’t compare a smoker to someone taking illegal substances. As far as I know, BH Yeshivos do not have this problem.
Like everything else, who knows what the future holds and what a Mussar Shmuess will sound like a couple of years down the line. But sofar, it is not an issue and please don’t make believe it is. People take the word of fiction seriously, even while being aware that it is fiction.
Maybe, if your story would be about a Bachur hiding his regular nicotine sigarette, that would help implant the idea that it is not normal to smoke. Think like a journalist: how you can change the world with slight inferences and biases.
May 2, 2013 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #951319BilboParticipantI am not sure how this got to the question of if tobacco is bad. In terms of are there drugs in yeshivas the answer is YES. To my knowledge nothing “hard” but marijuana and pills (both uppers and downers) are around, I wouldn’t say rampant in yeshivas. I have personal experience with guys from Ner Yisroel, Chaim Berlin, Mir (Eretz Yisrole) and Yesodei Yeshurin ( highschool and basis medrash) . it is a scary fact but guys have become adapt at covering up be it excuses or an upper to wake them up.
May 2, 2013 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #951320Yserbius123ParticipantDrug culture, b’derech klall, is very verbotten in Yeshivas. Smoking and drinking are completely different stories. In some Yeshivas (especially in Eretz Yisroel), bachurim are peer pressured into smoking, some just the opposite.
There are several Yeshivas which are open to former drug addicts, but they are not made up exclusively of that crowd. There are also several Yeshivas/Rehab centers open for current drug users. The top guys from the latter type places end up in the former type of place.
Drug smuggling and subsequent abuse are also major problems in certain Yeshivas (again, mostly in Eretz Yisroel). In general the boys have no idea what drugs are or what is in the package that someone just paid them $1000 to deliver to Antwerp. It happens a lot more often than people like to admit, and often the predators who enlist these boys go unpunished if the boys aren’t caught by the Japanese police. It’s not unheard of for these boys to end up addicted themselves once they’ve become “experts” at smuggling.
May 2, 2013 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #951321WIYMemberYitz17
It has other effects which are immediate. I have smoked in the past and so have some of my friends so let me share with you some effects it had on us. I’m talking about a significant smoking habit of half a pack a day or more.
1. Breathlessness. You get out of breath very fast and it makes it harder to walk, run, play ball or do anything requiring physical activity.
2. Weakened immune system. You catch a cold much quicker and it lasts much longer.
3. It ruins your voice. Your throat gets dry and achy and it ruins your singing voice so forget about singing zmiros.
4. Tight chest pains. I got this and some smokers get this as well you feel a tightness or gripping in your chest that comes and goes its very uncomfortable and frightening.
5. You become more nervous and you NEED your smokes and if you don’t get them you act tense and moody.
That’s not to mention that you will reek. Your breath will stink your clothing will stink and many people find the smell offensive. Its also a tremendous waste of time. If you smoke a pack a day that means you waste about 2 hours a day smoking! I strongly discourage anyone from taking up smoking.
May 2, 2013 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #951322rebdonielMemberIt’s another thing paving this country down a road to the pits.
Divrei HaYamim Bet, Perek Zayin, pasuk yud daled: “If My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (JPS)
May 2, 2013 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #951323rationalfrummieMemberMay Hashem forgive your win of using JPS. (Just kidding)
May 2, 2013 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #951324rebdonielMemberJPS is a great translation; the English is elegant. Just like why I love the Singer siddur, and the music of Sulzer and Lewandowski.
May 2, 2013 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #951325charliehallParticipant“it’s high time we started prosecuting and/or punishing the States that allow smoking weed. Not only should we prosecute the users, but the Gov. for passing a law against Federal law and Not enforcing Federal law.”
High time? Are you smoking something?
Marijuana remains a Schedule I controlled substance under federal law, although there is really no justification for that classification. It should at worst be a legal prescription drug like cocaine — there is good evidence of medical benefit and it has lower acute toxicity than just about any prescription drug that exists. And there is absolutely nothing that requires a state to make something illegal under state law just because the federal government has made it illegal. The federal government is still able to prosecute all the potheads in America, except that it would require a massive tax increase to pay for all the additional prosecutors, judges, and prisons that would be required. The right wingers would never stand for that.
May 2, 2013 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #951326charliehallParticipant“Does this sort of thing happen?:
Yes, although our communal leadership is either in massive denial, or in massive cover up mode. (Nothing worse for a yeshiva’s reputation than to have a drug bust.)
“I think it’s critical that we create a yeshiva with beis midrash for buchorim who are recovering drug addicts post rehab so they can get extra therapy while still being in a yeshiva. What do you think?”
Not only that, but a huge amount of Torah directly supports the 12 step recovery philosophy. Last Shabat I led an aggadata shiur on the narrative of Rabbi Shimon and the cave, pointing out the recovery lessons there, to a class of recovering addicts and their families. I would love to support such a yeshiva and if you can get anyone interested, please have them contact me so that I can lend my support publicly. (I’m easy to find as I use only my real name in my internet comments and don’t hide where I work and in what community I live.)
May 2, 2013 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #951327HealthParticipantCH -“And there is absolutely nothing that requires a state to make something illegal under state law just because the federal government has made it illegal. The federal government is still able to prosecute all the potheads in America,”
Obviously you know nothing about the reality in the US. People are flaunting Pot use and claiming medical necessity. I didn’t write the States should have to pass the same law -I wrote they shouldn’t be allowed to pass laws legalizing it -if this isn’t outlawed already by Federal law. They are doing this more and more. Also, the cops aren’t enforcing federal Pot laws -only following State laws. Since when does law enforcement only involve themselves with State laws? There was this show on “Cops” recently where the Cops helped some people get back their Pot plants because Pot is legal for “medical” use. This is what this country has come to, whether you’re in denial or Not! It makes more sense for them to allow people to grow and smoke opium – because this plant has more medical necessity than Weed!
May 2, 2013 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #951328nishtdayngesheftParticipantCharliehall.
You say “Yes, although our communal leadership is either in massive denial, or in massive cover up mode.”
Everyone judges a situation by circumstances they are familiar with. Therefore, It seems that you are most familiar with a specific community where there is a massive issue of drug use in “Yeshiva”.
While there is likely some drug use/abuse in almost any yeshiva, and the Roshei Yeshiva are aware of the possibility, the yeshivas I am familiar with would not condone such behavior nor would they allow to come to a situation where there is massive drug use!!!
I am thus agog to hear you say it is a massive issue and must surmise that since you are a teacher and have a PhD, it must be true in the circumstances you find yourself, yet not so in yeshivos that I am familiar with.
It is certainly a much more accepted practice among the leftward leaning crowd to use and abuse such substances recreationally. They somehow feel that dina dmalchusa does not apply to them.
May 2, 2013 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #951329VogueMemberBut I am sure the more right wing crowd does it too. They just don’t have the ability to posy anything about it online
May 2, 2013 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #951330lesschumrasParticipantI have a more basic question. With all the taxes cigarettes are expensive!! Where do bochurs get the money?
May 3, 2013 12:04 am at 12:04 am #951331VogueMembertheir parents.
May 3, 2013 12:07 am at 12:07 am #951332writersoulParticipantThose who smoke are also endangering the lives of those with whom they interact. Second hand smoke is a major inyan that is known to cause illness even in people who have never smoked- on a personal note, my great-grandfather got emphysema from second hand smoke. My bus driver smokes on the bus (though not while we’re driving), and when I smell that disgusting reek through the bus, I worry about what might happen.
May 3, 2013 12:35 am at 12:35 am #951333Torah613TorahParticipantWIY, are you talking about pot or nicotine?
Maybe I’m out of it, but I just don’t know anyone who smokes pot. Unless people don’t want to tell me, which is certainly possible.
May 3, 2013 12:38 am at 12:38 am #951334ultimateskierMemberQuestion to the OP: if you’re writing a book for teens wouldnt you need to be very familiar to their lifestyles? Doesnt seem like you do if you need to ask about the realistic level of your example? I mean no offense, just curious…
May 3, 2013 12:52 am at 12:52 am #951335HaLeiViParticipantVogue, obviously. I mean, it goes without saying, or happening.
May 3, 2013 1:00 am at 1:00 am #951336☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantMaybe I’m out of it, but I just don’t know anyone who smokes pot. Unless people don’t want to tell me, which is certainly possible.
It’s that big cover up Charlie’s talking about.
In fact, you probably smoke pot yourself, you just cover it up so well that you don’t even realize it.
May 3, 2013 1:14 am at 1:14 am #951337WIYMemberTorah613Torah
I smoked nicotine regular cigarettes.
May 3, 2013 1:15 am at 1:15 am #951338nishtdayngesheftParticipantLess,
Where do “bochurs” (sic)get the money?
As far as I know, cigarettes are significantly cheaper than pot and and recreational drugs.
Cigarettes in the City appear to be about $12 a pack. (based on the signs by the news stands)(Which by the way is not more than a typical lunch). If I recall corrcetly from when I had the distinct displeasure of serving on a grand jury, pills and other drugs were much more than that.
Why do you not question where the students Charlie is familiar with get their money. Annecdotaly, I had heard that some get it by dealing, but that cannot be all.
May 3, 2013 1:45 am at 1:45 am #951339VogueMemberI am still a teenager but I don’t know any greasy yeshiva bochur personally.
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