Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Contemporary Christain Miracle Stories
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April 16, 2013 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #609037playtimeMember
Are they all lies?
April 16, 2013 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #946116apushatayidParticipantWho cares?
April 16, 2013 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #946117playtimeMemberIf Jewish miracle stories bolster faith, what is there to say of those on the other side?
April 16, 2013 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #946118benignumanParticipantWho said miracles can only happen to Jews?
April 16, 2013 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #946119playtimeMemberbenignuman- I mean contemporary christian savior stories.
April 16, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #946120yytzParticipantIf I understand correctly, some of the Xian miracle stories involve someone who prayed to a deceased “saint,” or at least asked the “saint” to pray on their behalf, who then claims to be miraculously healed.
Could G-d miraculously heal someone, even if that person never prayed to anyone, or even if that person did something they shouldn’t do (like praying to a dead person)? Of course — G-d can do anything. So it’s possible some of the miraculous recoveries really did happen. But we have no reason to believe that praying to that “saint” was the cause of the miracle.
It’s also quite possible they weren’t miracles at all. People are diagnosed with deadly diseases, which then inexplicably go away, all the time. Misdiagnosis could be the culprit. But the human body is also a mysterious thing. Some medical researchers believe, for example, that cancer is more common that we think, and that many, perhaps most people get cancer here and there, which then goes away on its own without causing any harm.
April 16, 2013 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #946121MDGParticipantThey may be lies; they may be true, but exaggerated; there maybe miracles from the impure sources, like Paroh’s magicians.
Tamim Tehiyeh…
Miracles should be of no consequence. Even the Jews ignored Moshe when he first came and performed miracles. He had to say “Pakod…”
April 16, 2013 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #946123WIYMemberHashem can do miracles for anyone who deserves it. Hashem loves all His creations and wants to bestow goodness on all of them. If a non Jew keeps the sheva mitzvos bnei noach he is a tzaddik and deserves miracles. If anything I would say its much much easier for a non Jew to merit miracles.
April 16, 2013 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #946124R.T.ParticipantWas Iyov Jewish? Sure, he suffered tremendously at the beginning, but look at the conclusion of the Sefer.
April 16, 2013 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #946125zahavasdadParticipantWas Iyov Jewish? Sure, he suffered tremendously at the beginning, but look at the conclusion of the Sefer.
There is an opinion in the Gemorah that he never existed
April 16, 2013 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #946128benignumanParticipantTalmud,
What they attribute to their “savior” we would attribute to G-d. When you read an account of an event you have to separate the facts presented and the interpretation of those facts by the person giving over the account.
April 16, 2013 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #946129benignumanParticipantZahavasdad,
A friend of mine once said “the greatest of the issurin Iyov suffered was that after all that suffering, some people say he didn’t even exist!”
April 16, 2013 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #946130R.T.Participant“There is an opinion in the Gemorah that he never existed”
I am aware of that opinion. But it flies in the face of Chazal who say he was in Paroh’s court of 3 advisors.
April 16, 2013 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #946131Sam2ParticipantR.T.: It doesn’t fly in the face of anything. There are separate Midrashim. Chazal had a right to argue on each other. Both opinions are equally valid.
April 16, 2013 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #946132Torah613TorahParticipantI don’t like this thread.
April 16, 2013 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #946133playtimeMemberSo now that you are all saying miracles happen to people who pray to different sources, why should Jewish stories bolster my Emunah?
April 17, 2013 12:04 am at 12:04 am #946134WIYMembertalmud
Tzaddik gozer vHakadosh Baruch Hu Mekayem. I don’t think there are many or any stories by the non Jews like the ones we have. Yes there may be some miracles that happen to individuals like miraculously surviving a car accident…but they don’t have Tzaddikim stories.
April 17, 2013 12:44 am at 12:44 am #946135benignumanParticipantTalmud,
Your emunah should not be based on miracles. It should be based on intellect and personal experience and growth. That being said they can still strengthen your emunah against those who deny the Divine altogether.
April 17, 2013 3:53 am at 3:53 am #946136Veltz MeshugenerMemberEXPLAIN emunah based on personal growth.
April 17, 2013 4:00 am at 4:00 am #946137yitayningwutParticipanttalmud –
They pray to the same source as you. They just cc someone else too. Or in the words of the Rema (OC 156): ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???.
April 17, 2013 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #946139benignumanParticipantVeltz,
When a person commits themselves to adhering to the halacha in certain areas and finds that he becomes a better person as to those areas it strengthens his emunah that the Torah system works and by extension is more likely to be divine.
So if a person finds he has anger issues and suppresses his anger in various situations in an attempt to follow the halacha and mussar, and then over the course of time finds that he no longer gets angry altogether, he concludes that he has fixed (to a degree at least) a character trait through Torah.
April 17, 2013 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #946140zahavasdadParticipant“There is an opinion in the Gemorah that he never existed”
I am aware of that opinion. But it flies in the face of Chazal who say he was in Paroh’s court of 3 advisors
The Gemorah IS Chazal
April 17, 2013 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #946141rationalfrummieMemberThat opinion is rejected in the Gemara- bava Basra 15b.
April 17, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #946142yitayningwutParticipantThe Rambam and others explicitly maintan that opinion. See the Ramban in the beginning of Iyov (who himself has a different view).
April 17, 2013 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #946143apushatayidParticipant“but they don’t have Tzaddikim stories”
Yes they do. Only they don’t call them Tzadikim, they call them saints.
April 17, 2013 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #946144zaidy78ParticipantThis is the problem of Rebbishe Maysis. Our Emunah has to be stronger than stories. Yes Rebbes know, and so do all GEdolim know, but our Emunah in the Eibishter is stronger than all the mayselach
April 17, 2013 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #946145just my hapenceParticipant“That opinion is rejected in the Gemara- bava Basra 15b.”
As is the opinion that he lived biy’mei moshe.
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