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I don’t agree with defending truthsharer. You can’t defend bizui talmidei chachomim by claiming they’re not talmidei chachomim. That just compounds the avlah.
DY: I see it as a discussion between those greater than myself.
That being said, I certainly don’t see the Moetzes being the “end-all”, noting that both in EY and America there are “Gedolei Rabbonim” who have the right to an opinion, even though they are not part of the Agudah (for example on the “right”, Rav Yoel Satmer Rov ZTL). The Agudah is not the Sanhedrin. We certainly should not make the mistake of allowing the “Shem Agudah” substitute for the halachic process, for looking at ALL valid sources of opinion (even those that I would reject out of hand), and then seeking out the Emes.
Besides, WADR to the members of the Moetzes, the Agudah is a political entity, and membership (as well as action) comes with all the baggage that politics entails.
You missed my point. He said he doesn’t respect them, not that he follows the opinion of other talmidei chachomim.
There is no defense for not respecting R’ Dovid Feinstein, R’ Shmuel Kamenetzky, etc. (not to exclude anyone on that list), and then to defend himself by claiming that they’re not talmidei chachamim.
Yes, it’s circular. So is the issur of being an atheist.
I guess he is hurt, but I still must defend the kavod of these talmidei chachonim, and so should you.
GAW got it right. Who said that not respecting someone is equal to being mevazeh him? And wasn’t it you who was mevazeh a MO rabbi?
I have my own rav, and I ask him my shailos and as I posted before I did lose a drop of respect for him because he didn’t want to do something because it wasn’t 100% yeshivish, so he will wait for others and then jump aboard. Does that mean I don’t like him or respect him? No, it just means on that one issue I disagree with him.
Furthermore, as GAW mentioned, the Moetzes is a political-rabbinical arm of the Agudah. I didn’t say anything derogatory or insulting about any of the members, I just said I don’t really hold of them, and just so you know, from what I can see of the real world, 99% of yeshivish people don’t hold from the Agudah-Moetzes (they may hold of individuals on the Moetzes).
Finally, just to reiterate, if you want others to respect your gedolim, then you should pay the same respect to their gedolim.
And wasn’t it you who was mevazeh a MO rabbi?
I would only denounce one who was specifically denounced by gedolim or my rebbeim. I would not denounce a rabbi simply because he’s MO.
And saying that you don’t respect a talmid chacham, and especially saying that he isn’t one, is indeed being mevazah him.
And, as I said, I agree with GAW that it’s circular. My macho’oh still stands.
So according to you, you can denounce a gadol if he was denounced by your gadol. Does that apply to other people or just to you? The same way some members of the Agudah’s Moetzes is viewed as a gadol, Rabbi Tendler is also viewed as a gadol. Furthermore, the same way your gedolim have denounced Rabbi Tendler, there are other gedolim who have denounced your gedolim. So, if it’s OK for you to denounce, shouldn’t it be OK for others? Or is it your opinion that only gedolim denounced by your gedolim can be denounced, but gedolim denounced by other gedolim can’t be denounced?
We’re not going to get anywhere like this. I already said it’s circular. If you want to stick to the rules of logic, you can ch’v denounce the entire Yiddishkeit, since we consider A”Z to be bad, and l’shitosom, that makes us bad.
All I want to know is why is it OK for you to denounce a gadol but not OK when someone else does it.
I believe in Teshuvos Binyan Tzvi there’s a teshuva regarding issues of bizui talmidei chochomim. If I recall correctly, the person asking the shayla found that at one shul he went to, they were mevazeh the other shul’s rov and said he wasn’t a talmid chochom etc etc, and the other shul reciprocated.
If I’m not mistaken the question was whether he could daven in a minyan in either location. The teshuva (as I remember it) says that because each community is doing it al da’as their rov, so nobody is posul l’minyan.
I hope I’m recalling this from the right location – I don’t have the shu”t on hand.
Just thought I’d share.
I have not ch”v denounced any gedolim.
GAW, let me help you. If someone learns and has reached the level of paskening shailos, he is a Talmid Chocham.You must respect him, unless he is a bona-fide roshah. When in doubt, be machmir as it is a chomure de’Oraisa. Get it?
What is it with people in the CR and True Scotsmen?! They pop up everywhere! GAW sincerely believes that someone is not a Talmid Chochom because they did something GAW disagrees with, because if they were a TRUE Talmid Chochom they couldn’t have; DaasYochid has never been mevazeh Gedolim because if he was mevazeh them then they couldn’t have been a TRUE Godol. I mean, I like Scotland – beautiful country, lovely people – in fact my father’s Scottish but enough with the True Scotsmen already! I feel like I should be drinking whisky and Irn Bru, eating haggis and reading Rabbie Burns whilst wearing a kilt and simultaneously playing ‘Farewell to Stromness’ on the bagpipes… Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhh! Actually, that whisky might not be such a bad idea after all….
Was Rabbi Burns a gadol?
JMH: LOL, your posts will be read in Scottish brogue in my head hereon.
Robert ‘Rabbie’ Burns – Scotland’s national poet.
Torah – I’m not Scottish, my father is but he lost his accent ages ago; my grandparents moved to England when he was about 9/10.
DY,
while you say you haven’t denounced any, others will say that you have. If someone thinks that rabbi tendler is a gadol, then you have indeed denounced a gadol.
Again, this is a circular argument. To rephrase your statement to be correct:
If someone thinks that rabbi tendler is a gadol, then he will indeed think that I have denounced a gadol.
Anyhow, you still owe an apology to the talmidei chachomim (who, it should be pointed out, arenot nearly as controversial as Rabbi Tendler) whom you defamed.
Robert ‘Rabbie’ Burns – Scotland’s national poet.
Yes, I know.
DY, I didn’t defame anyone. I just said I don’t respect them.
In any case I don’t think they’re gedolim, so I will use your Tendler reason and not worry about it. I will also not hold my breath waiting for your apology in insulting someone whom many hold is a gadol.
We’re talking about the moiser again, ?? ????? ?????
DaasYochid – Just making sure…
“Truth”sharer,
I am wondering why, even if an apology would be appropriate from DY, you would think that it would somehow be directed to you, that one would think YOU should be holding your breath?
Where did I say it was directed to me?
T,
A direct quote from your comment. “I will also not hold my breath waiting for your apology”.
I know what you are going to respond, but truthfully, if an apology is appropriate its not something you are party to at all for the breath holding analogy.
Just pointing out that apparently you take this as a personal affront to you and that it was not ??? ????.
The gedolim are certainly great in Torah knowledge. However, that does not mean they know from politics, or public policy. Have they made any big kiddush Hashem lately? All I hear about is them lambasting secular Israelis, yelling at the modern orthodox, and protesting the Internet. Where is the kiddush Shem shomayim in that?
To Truthsharer
You said 99% of the real world of the Yeshivish People dont hold from the Moetzes. That is absolutely not true. Maybe you dont hold from them which is a very small percentage. Everyone on the Moetzes are Gedolim & if you have a problem with any of them set up a meeting with them privately to discuss the issues you have with them before being Mevazeh.
Irrational,
It is sad to see you publicly proclaim how far you are from any gadol that you can make such a statement.
Oy.
Rational frummie- the gedolim are great in Torah and in learning so much, they learn about Halacha and Halacha in certain situations. They know what they are doing when they are making a declaration. It is a chutzpah for you to challenge someone who is wayyyyyy greater than you and knows way more Torah. Maybe you don’t like them because what they say may sometimes be harsh and hurt, but the truth hurts.
tsharer: The major difference is Tendler is widely disputer as to his status. Those talmidei chachomim (9 out of 10 listed plus the 10th “somewhat”, as you so eloquently put it) that you defamed by saying you do not respect them (and yes saying you don’t respect a talmid chochom is being m’vaze talmidei chachomim) are universally agreed to as their status as talmidei chachomim.
Even you admit those nine listed talmidei chachomim are talmidei chachomim. So you do not have a leg to stand on even according to yourself.
The Gedolim are great in Torah, you’re right. But gadlus in Torah, shteiging abilities, and finding innovative chakiras to explain a machlokes between the Rosh and the Ritva does not translate into political prowess or knowledge of world affairs.
When Rav Moshe z”tl had a question about the kashrus of certain fish, he asked a scientist to explain the relevant inyanim to him. In ancient Israel, the kohen and the king were two separate figures.
Once the gedolim start being mekadesh Shem shomayim, I will fully support them and all their decisions. Make no mistake, I respect their Torah learning and halachic decisions, but that doesn’t mean they know best about politics or science ( see slifkin). Rav Moshe understood this. They should too.
Has anyone here ever heard the phrase “I respectfully disagree”?
Given that there are differences between our religious leaders and influencers of every stripe, and there have been for thousands of years;
and given that there are boruch hashem more people walking around with more Torah education in more places than ever before;
and given that HKBH gave us our own seichel and our own personal discernment, which we are commanded to subordinate to HKBH’s directions for living in his Torah, but which we are not commanded to subordinate to the will of another human being, no matter how much of a tzadik or talmid chochom he may be;
and given that in exercise of our free will to agree with or disagree with those who are almost certainly holier than or more learned than us, we will ultimately have to give din vecheshbon to HKBH, and not to anyone here, or to any designated defender of gedolim;
and given that we are all capable of being menshlech, even when we hold by a different opinion, psak, philosophy or worldview;
Let us resolve to respect not only each other, but also those termed “gedolim” by those who mean it as “manhigim”, by simply respecting them and not condemning them but if we must, rather identify the particular action or decision that they are associated with that is problematic.
It doesn’t cost anything to be respectful, even when you vehemently disagree. And no one is capable of enforcing an emotional or intellectual attachment or visceral dislike on anyone.
If I have not practiced what I am preaching in the past, I will do my best to avoid it in the future.
Irrational,
Slifkin’s many public statements and comments since completely prove that what was said about him was accurate. The gedolim were able to pick up his true measure even before he started with his later public pronouncements.
You have just disproved your whole flawed thesis with your own words.
Rationalfrummie, why in your view critisizing those who are wrong is bad? I know it is not very American, but that does not make it wrong.
GAW – the point I was making is you are self-defining, doing something you disagree with is not a necessary disqualification. If it was something that was indisputably contrary to being a Talmid Chochom then you’d be correct but from what you said it sounds more like the former (unless you are privy to information others don’t have…)
GAW – Shall we start with staying within bounds of Halacha (in its diversity, not necessarily the uber-machmir position), not being a kofer/apikores as defined by the Gemoro and Rambam in yad (so not in the modern throwaway sense of either word), having middos tovos and then work from there…
GAW –
So you have excluded all those who call fellow Yidden “Reshaim Gemurim” just because the (supposed Reshaim) no longer want to pay for them (the namecallers) to sit and learn (and/or want their children to have a better chance of survival) (certainly not Middos Tovos)?
Middos Tovos is a requirement from the Gemoro, not my own definition. As is well known Chazal call a person who does not have middos tovos to go with his learning a “chamor noseh seforim”.
And you have included those who would create a Rabbah.
How have I done that? Creating a ‘Rabbah’ is outside of even the stretchiest of stretched bounds of Halacha so how is someone who believes in doing so included?
No idea who Rabbi Saul Lieberman was.
Serarah would prevent women from being able to lead communities or authoritatively answer halachic questions, just as women cannot be kings or judges because the position is meant to strike fear, or at least obedience into people.
In our modern society, women have greatly expanded roles secularly, as well as in terms of Talmud Torah. Therefore, its important to ask ourselves to what extent Halacha accommodates to social change. Women today are businesswomen, artists, musicians, CEOs, scientists, and Torah scholars. How does Halacha respond to such change?
Deborah HaNeviah is clearly THE exception- that’s why the Gemara discusses her shoftus at length and is perplexed by it.
Pretending that women’s roles and occupations haven’t changed is to live in ignorance. Women working away from home, especially in high-powered jobs has been on the rise for 50 years. Women earn advanced degrees, and sit on the boards of fortune 500 companies. Even 60 years ago, this was unheard of; mah she’ein kein regarding the times of the gemara!!!
Because back then, women weren’t expected or allowed to hold jobs of influence or power over a community. They cared for the home and raised children- and this remained the status quo for thousands of years.
Halacha is often shaped just as much by societal norms and trends as it is by objective moral standards. Good examples are cholov yisroel, which rav moshe held wasn’t necessary because times and countries had changed. Ditto for certain laws of tznius, since they vary widely by county. In Europe it’s standard to kiss a woman on both cheeks upon meeting her- in America that’s unheard of. I could go on and on- different rabbanim had different attitudes towards relations with goyim based on their OWN relations with goyim, based on their respective cultures and societies.
All I’m saying is that Halacha was always getting rescaled and evolving based on what happened at certain times. In this case of rabbahs, we have to think about whether this is a positive change, similar to the increasing of Torah education for women in the last century, or negative, like intermarriage or eating treif by the non-frum.
rationalfrummie- youre right, women should go back to the kitchen.
Troll. Women are not in the kitchen and will never go back (this is coming from a guy). Women can do nearly everything men can do in America, whether it’s voting, fighting in war, getting elected to congress, or running a company worth billions of dollars (see yahoo).
If you don’t like it, move to Saudi Arabia, but you can’t ignore society forever. Halacha at the meta-stage has some serious questions that need to be answered. The most glaring one is how important is society and social norms in establishing Halacha. I quoted above several examples where this is indeed the case. The shaila that remains is how far we go vis a vis bnos yisroel and their roles in communal life.
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