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Most Frum Jews believe that Limud Hatorah protects the Jewish nation and the more full time learners the better.
There are two recent news stories and I’m wondering if they are connected?
1. “Bennett Explains his Vision
(Wednesday, April 3rd, 2013)
Now the arabs are going back to the rocket attacks – IMHO this makes no sense. They were just begging for Israel to stop pounding them and now so soon they are already back at it?
We just went through Pesach and in Mitzrayim it says the last few Makos Hashem had to force Pharoh’s mind – not to let the Jews go. Why? Because no sane leader would not acquiesce to Moshe Rabbeynu’s demands.
The same thing here -I feel that the terrorists are being forced by Hashem to attack because it makes No sense to go back to attacking so soon. I think Hashem is sending a message to Israel that there will be grave consequences if you start limiting the amount of people learning!
mmmm…is this the first time that rockets have been shot at the the negev?? seems to me that there were just a few rockets shot in recent years,even when the chareidim were in the governmet and all chareidim benefited from he past government…”ma nishtanu hajom hazeh?”
Health- How does one reconcile all the Jewish lives lost when the charedim were schteiging away in the beis without the threat of being drafted?
“I feel that the terrorists are being forced by Hashem to attack”
I’ve read a lot of apologetics for terrorists, on their own internet sites, on the sites of the anti-Israel Left, of the anti-Semitic right, and of the clueless folks who say that both parties are equally at fault. But this takes the cake for the worst justification. And it is on what is supposed to be a frum Jewish site. The terrorists are rashaim, period.
The Haredim are going to blame anything (and everything) bad that occurs in eretz Yisroel from here on out on the draft. We know, we know.
Most Israelis believe that their country was founded as a place where they could be safe from Torah and Mitsvos. The handful of frummies who see kedusha in the medinah are a very small and hated minority.
Health: As the numbers of CHareidim learning in Yeshivos in Israel rose in the early 2000’s, so too the number of Jews being killed by suicide bombings, shootings, stonings, and other terror attacks also rose. I don’t need to remind you. We all know the truth. Over 1000 killed, over 6000 injured. Among the victims were charedim and chilonim, men and women, Rabbis and rock musicians, doctors and students.
If you really want to go down the road of causality you are implying, then I guess that we should all infer that because more Jews began learning in Chareidi institutions, more Jews were torn to shreds, murdered, blown up.
The idea is preposterous, of course, as is your arrogation of ruach hakodesh – or reading of tea leaves – to determine the causality of the recent rocket attacks.
More Jews than ever in history are learning torah, tens if not hundreds of thousands of them over the years directly funded and subsidized by the secular Israeli government. That, from a causality POV, earns a lot of schar in HKBH’s protection.
Do you really think or know that HKBH is a “yeah, but what have you done for me lately?” kind of diety?
And do you ever talk to IDF soldiers, or leaders? I do. I have. The idea of kochi veotzem yodi is very far from their expression, and many of them acknowledge the nisim gluyim we’ve seen over the last number of years.
I have to agree with charliehall – you’ve come up with some really out there ideas before, but this one takes the cake.
apukerma : you write total poppycock. not only on the first assertion (most israelis…could be safe from….???)but even more on the second assertion…(a very small and hated minority???)
akuperma, you should get out more. Most Israelis believe that their country was founded as a place they could be free from persecution by umos haolom, and free to practice Torah umitzvos if they so choose.
Most Israelis see and understand the miracles that HKBH has showered upon Israel since its inception.
Most Israelis respect the “frummies” who see kedusha in the medinah because those “frummies” most often serve in the IDF alongside them.
Those “frummies” make up almost 40% of the officer corps in Israel’s Combat brigades. That kind of position is earned and respected, and not given to those who are hated.
In short, akuperma, you are building and burning a straw man. have fun, but don’t singe your tzitzis.
the first post is dense. “the more learners the better” isn’t infinitely linear dude.
SJ/ROB:
So you don’t think that the reduction in the amount of Torah being learnt will take away from the zchusim of the State of Israel, and have negative effects?
Akuperma, it is Brisker slander.
Moderators????- My post make too much sense to be posted?
Oooh, now you’ve convinced me.
The terrorists are rashaim, period.
They are indeed reshaim. There are reshaim who seek to destroy us in every generation – ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????????. How unsuccessful they are is related to our zechuyos. You can scrap the “period”.
I don’t like the OP’s seeming attitude of “I told you so”, and I don’t know that we can point at any particular tragedy and blame it on the plans of the Jewish reshaim’s plans, but I am scared for the security of the inhabitants of the Holy Land, and the rest of the world’s Yidden as well, with the decreased zechuyos.
Historically speaking did’nt an intifada of some sort break out right after Ehud Barak declared a “secular revolution” of some sort?
There has been terrorist attacks almost every year in Israel since the first Yishuv in 1881
I think that rocket attacks are the result of weakness (real or perceived) of the politicians who decide when and how to react. As for lomdei Tora, anyone who goes to Chareidi neighborhoods (outside) and public libraries during seder hours knows that many of those registered are not killing themselves in the tent of Tora.
anyone who goes to Chareidi neighborhoods (outside) and public libraries during seder hours knows that many of those registered are not killing themselves in the tent of Tora.
What do you think you’ll find in the Beis Midrash?
“I feel that the terrorists are being forced by Hashem to attack”
I don’t think the terrorists need to be “forced” to try to kill us; they’ve been into that for a while. The question is whether Hashem will let them do so, and yes, that is indeed dependant on the zchusim of the general population.
akuperma:
“The handful of frummies who see kedusha in the medinah are a very small and hated minority.”
Not true.
DY:
“I don’t like the OP’s seeming attitude of “I told you so”, and I don’t know that we can point at any particular tragedy and blame it on the plans of the Jewish reshaim’s plans, but I am scared for the security of the inhabitants of the Holy Land, and the rest of the world’s Yidden as well, with the decreased zechuyos.”
+1
“What do you think you’ll find in the Beis Midrash?”
Some learners and many empty seats.
Hey Health! In addition to the other responders, I should add that the it is largely DUE to the Chareidim that missiles are falling in the south. How so? Very simple; The Chareidim joined the Sharon government on the eve of the expulsion from Gush Katif, which then led to the subsequent takeover of the Gaza strip by Hamas, who now fire rockets from the ruins of Gush Katif. Had thenChareidim not joined, Sharon would have no government and there would be no expulsion, and no rocket attacks.
So much for your brilliant theories…
Avi K.,
You probably do think that way. It’s a product of your negative view of Chareidim, but divorced from reality.
DaasYochid: On my Birthright trip, I had 2 tour guides. One of them was a frum man. He told me that he moved to a certain area, and one of the first things he did was find a local yeshiva to learn in each morning (he worked as a tour guide in the afternoons and learned half a day in the morning). He saw that every day, there were about 30 guys in the yeshiva learning, with many more empty seats.
One morning, he comes in to learn, and was astounded. That day, there were about 200 guys in the beis medrash! He asked the Rosh Yeshiva, “Why is it so crowded today?”
The Rosh Yeshiva responded, “We got a tip that the government is coming today to verify that the guys are actually learning in yeshiva. We got the word out, and the guys came in so they won’t lose their government money!”
The tour guide told the Rosh Yeshiva, “You complain that people here hate chareidim. You say they’re out to get you. When you blatantly lie and steal from the government like this, can you really blame them?” He then walked out of the yeshiva and never returned.
DY, b’toch ami ani yoshev.I do not, though, have a negative view of Chareidim. I have a negative view of some parts of their ideology.
to health,kanoi next door, daas jochid and others: Historically, you are all wrong. There was torah-lots of it- in the bais sheini,and yet, it was destroyed! (to remind you, it was about sinas chinom..)there was torah everywhere throughout the middle ages in europe, yet jews were expelled from every country in europe ,including Spain, of course. There was plenty of torah in poland in the sixteenth century, yet chmilniecky killed over 200,000 jews…all because of lack of torah? there was lots of torah in poland and lithuania in the twentieth century,yet Hitler Jemach shemo killed millions of frum jews…for lack of torah??
We cannot and never should try to read into hakodosh boruch huh’s intentions.It is preposterous to say that the coming adjustments to the intake of soldiers in israel will kill torah. It will only make it more difficult to coem to an agreement if the voices of unreason prevail.
ROB, I would like to point out where you are wrong .
1)There was not a lot of Torah in Lithuania and Poland in the 20-th centuary. There were a couple of yeshivos — a miniscule percentage of the general Jewish population. The people were going or already were off the derech in masse.
2)If not for all the learning in golus, there would have been more pogroms. And in Spain s lot of Jews were busy learning philosophy and sciences instead of the Torah.Chazal said that the Torah protects and bittul Torah can bring on tzaros. We can not always know why things happen, but Chazal and later Gedolim would sometimes tie certain tzaros to certain aveiros.
DaMoshe- people can’t live on air. The government doesn’t let them work without going to the army. They believe that it is assur to join the army. Therefore they work off the books and learn at nights.
mdd: You have no clue about history. In Poland,pre-world war II, there were thousands of botei midrash everywhere wehre baalei batim and yeshiva bochurim learned every day. In Hungary- pre-deportation, there were hundreds of frum villages and towns and in Lithuania- the greatest gedolim were living there. Ironically, the jews of Germany,where indeed there was great assimilation, were the only ones who actually escaped the holocaust,as they were expelled but left (mostly) alive and emigrated to many parts of the world (including palestine,btw).Also, the jews of Russia, who truly were assimilating in great numbers pre-war, due to the communists, were the only ones who escaped the holocaus in great number.
Sure, there were many who left the fold in other parts of europe but percentage wise- there were more frum jews in europe pre-war than there is today in israel!
so, your analysis is dead wrong!
As for your second argument, it is pure sophistry. You can always claim that- if not this or that- there would be more-but this is your false assumption and you cannot, for one moment,prove it.
Well this is funny. The chareidim are arguing that in Europe nobody learned, and the apikorsim are arguing that in Europe everybody learned.
Mdd
It depends on the country in Europe. It is true they were “Less frummer” in Poland, but in Lithuanaia and Hungry they were “More frummer” and they were destroyed too.
And the least frum of all the US and England were totally spared.
ROB, you do realize that your position is against Chaza”l, don’t you? And then you invented history to prove your point.
Avi K:
“What do you think you’ll find in the Beis Midrash?” Some learners and many empty seats.”
Did you ever actually check it out yourself, or is this just the assumption you’ve made based on your preconceived notions?
Do yourself a favor and visit the Mir Yeshiva during seder, and try finding an empty seat. Here’s a hint: you won’t.
ROB:
Torah and mitzvos protect us. We say it twice a day. Sure, bad things have happened while we had (some) Torah learning, but perhaps if we had less learning, they would’ve been worse.
“You can always claim that- if not this or that- there would be more-but this is your false assumption and you cannot, for one moment,prove it.”
It says it on the Torah. That isn’t proof enough for you?
mdd:
“hazal said that the Torah protects and bittul Torah can bring on tzaros. We can not always know why things happen, but Chazal and later Gedolim would sometimes tie certain tzaros to certain aveiros.”
+1
Torah and mitzvos protect us. We say it twice a day. Sure, bad things have happened while we had (some) Torah learning, but perhaps if we had less learning, they would’ve been worse.
How could things have been worse than the holocaust other than every jew wiped out.
I don’t know, and I’m happy we didn’t find out.
Besides, one could make the argument that the Holocaust was the worst-case scenario, as spelled out in parshas Ki Savo, and was caused by generations of widespread abandonment of the Torah.
“hazal said that the Torah protects and bittul Torah can bring on tzaros. We can not always know why things happen, but Chazal and later Gedolim would sometimes tie certain tzaros to certain aveiros.”
A famous example of this is the Tosfos Yom Tov, who tied Tach V’Tat in with talking during Davening. I have heard a similar idea with the Holocaust, and how the Sephardim were (mostly) saved B’Zechus that they did not talk during davening.
zahavasdad- on of my great-grandfathers was from a family of fourteen children. Four survived. In a worse scenario he would have been the only survivor.
ZD, How could things have been worse than the holocaust other than every jew wiped out.
You assume that there was enough talmud Torah to protect, yet it didn’t. You too are guilty of denying the words of Chaza”l, and making up facts to bolster your position.
ROB, in other discussions, you claimed that kollel en masse is a new innovation.
I am sure you know that throughout the centuries, wealthy jews always took as their sons-in law talmidei chachomim and helped them for years to study. (until they got a position, by the way). What people object to today is the blanket acceptance that everone should learn in a kollel “le-olam vo-ed”. THAT- for sure- was never the case and that, for sure, will bankrupt us. Take selected individuals- help them for a number of years and to that, no one would object.
(other places as well, IIRC)
Now you claim that there was more learning then than now (which would be difficult to fathom if so many fewer people were learning full time).
Your facts seem to change depending on the argument.
DY: In all fairness, I believe what ROB is saying is that the quantity of learning was greater, even if the number of full time learners was not (note that I believe he is wrong. Daf, universal yeshiva and the other programs have created a more learned and learning Yid than in Europe)
Seems one can always learn new things. As an einikle of the Tosafos Yom Tov, I had learned of the connection and the mi sheberach of course; but having done a bit of research, I found an interesting concept, that The Chasam Sofer in Toras Moshe on Purim, as well as the Yismach Moshe on Perek Tes of the the Megillah quote a sefer She’eris Yisroel that the large Tav and Ches in the Megillah are a siman that the punishments that were supposed to be during the times of Purim for the various aveiras were postponed until TaCH v’Tat 1648.
I don’t know if one would call that reverse or delayed causality, but I do know that I’d have more bitochon on the Tosfos Yom Tov’s capacity to infer causality than on myself or any of you, or any contemporary theorizer, for that matter.
“Rabbi” of Berlin, I am basing myself on statements of Chazal!!! True, there were great Gedolim in Lithuania, but the rest were mostly off the derech. There was a lot of OTD already and more by the day in Poland. In Hungary – a lot of OTD,but a lot of Frum – no wonder threy were spared more. The Russian Jews were anusim. Again, no wonder — more survived. In Germany — they were OTD for doros – a limud zechus.
And I saw a pshat that the reason for the peace of the Jews post WWII is the fact that the WWII was such a big blow that HKB”H has rachmanus even though there are aveiors in Israel and elsewhere.
Sophistry?!? I am basing myself on divrei Chazal!!One of them — if a person sees suffering coming on him, let him check his deeds!
ZD, Gemorah in Shabbos says that a young city is more likely to be spared — less years of aveiros. Hence — US and England.
I agree with Daas Yochid that undoubtedly there is more learning now than in pre war Europe. And as many, including R’ Shach z’l recognized, much of that is due to the establishment of the medina.
Though the numbers weren’t tiny, and as Alan Dershowitz recounts in his book “Chutzpah” seeing a damaged gemoro in one of his trips to Poland with the label “property of the wagon drivers learning society”, many working people, everyday Jews, who weren’t learning in Kollel, and were working hard every day, were kovewah itim leTorah. There was much learning going on, and the concept of doing it to the exclusion of working – for the masses – is an entirely new concept.
Maybe I should quote the chasam sofer here? If chodosh osur min hatorah, then…..
DY: In all fairness, I believe what ROB is saying is that the quantity of learning was greater, even if the number of full time learners was not
If he would argue that way, I would accuse him of using the same type of “pure sophistry” which he attributed to mdd.
I know it’s a mathematical possibility, which is why I used the term “difficult” rather than “impossible” (to fathom).
Mdd, I’m in full agreement with you here, but can you please spare us the bold? It makes it seem like you need to shout to be heard, and in reality (in this case), your words speak for themselves.
Gamanit: They don’t have to go to the army. They can also do sherut le’umi. They can serve in Magen David Adom.
Even if what you say is true, it doesn’t excuse the lying. The government gives money for those who learn the full day. Learning at night does not qualify for the funds, and they are stealing when they come in during the day only when there is an inspection.
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