Win for the Charaidim in Eretz Yisroel!!

I didnt read any article, but from GAW’s post it likely means they take away or dont give you a passport

Without a Passport you cannot enter any other country (You might be able to leave Israel, but you can go anywhere)

So a Palestinian who supports Hamas, and whose sibling is a terrorist, can get an Israeli passport and welfare state benefits, but a Jew who wants to learn Torah can’t. And Hareidim who take jobs “on the books” will be immediately arrested for draft evasion. And since welfare state benefits include housing and health care, anyone learning Torah will be cut off from access to all but the most expensive alternatives. Does loss of tax benefits for yeshivos means that they will have to pay income tax on money received from abroad (i.e. if Americans send $100K to support students learning, the government takes $30K)? If these sanctions don’t work, what comes next? The whole article, in context, makes it clears this is the governmetn deliberately oppressing the hareidim in the hope of forcing them to give up being hareidi. And absent a change to the Basic Laws, the Supreme Court will order conscription of women – which is even more of a problem halachically. It is oppression, pure and simple.

If Hareidim are treated worse than Arabs (and bluntly, the zionists do mistreat Arabs, especially those that oppose them politically), then why not support a Palestinian state? [edited] The most optimistic scenario is the haredim will be able to ally with the Israeli left and force an end to conscription. The worst is that the ability to peacefully sit and learn Torah in Eretz Yisrael will require replacing Medinat Yisrael.

If the article is correct, and goes into effect, it means the end of the yishuv as we know it.

[edited] inappropriate terminology

In a welfare state, being cut off from the welfare state puts you in a very bad way. It means that in a hospital, you pay the rate charged to rich American tourists. Most housing in Israel is in someway subsidized – so it means you can only buy housing in the “tourist” apartments. The major tax benefit yeshiovos receive is to be able to avoid taxes on foreign contributions (which otherwise would be taxable income). And they are still banning hareidim who want to work “on the books” from doing so unless they serve in the army (as opposed to Arabs, who can get jobs).

By avoiding arrests, they avoid an immediate confrontation, unless they (as their press suggests) see these only as first steps, with stricter measures to be applied if they don’t work at lowering the yeshiva population. By establishing a system in which 15% of the people have restricted civil rights, you guarantee instability. Since this is religion based, it will violate most human rights principles.

At the very least, it will end cooperation in other areas between hareidim and dati leumi. The Hareidim will offer to ally with Labor based on common support for the welfare state, and an agreement to end conscription and equal rights. Imagine the situation at a school in America where some students are raising money for hareidim who are being denied basic medical care and housing since they learn Torah and the Dati Leumi are responsible, while their classmates are raising money for settlers who are left homeless by policies to reduce settlements which they will blame on the hareidim who will be supporting such policies.

Akuperma the use of the n word in any context is offensive please refrain from using it in the future.

Thank you for pointing it out.

You can’t leave the country unless you do what it wants? Israel truly is now a fascist state.

ZD -“Without a Passport you cannot enter any other country (You might be able to leave Israel, but you can go anywhere)”

This actualy is No problem -they have an undergound -black -market for this. It will be a New major business for Frum Yidden, but the social programs might hurt some Charedim.

Yes, GAW, criminals, just the benevolent medina will be very kind and not throw them in jail.

How you can claim that a terrible scenario is a victory, because it could have been worse, is beyond me.

@gavra_at_work Where does it say they can work?

GAW -“Health: Where is the “I told you so”?”

/;) – (:o

The charedim have brought this all on themselves and in the process have created one of the biggest chil hashems in history. There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army. If learning is important they can learn before and after, and if they were truly interested in doing their part the army would have worked out a system where they could continue learning while they serve.

But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve. Some of them are just scared, and some of them (especially the leadership) are afraid that once their population is our in the real world they will realize that they dont need to be charedi and that their roshei yeshiva have been wrong about some things.

Its a chillul hashem because secular israeli’s see charedim as parasites. This causes them to hate the torah and orthodox jews. Charedim should have approached the secular like chabad, with warmth and understanding and tried to be mekarev them, instead they just pushed them away by being selfish and worrying only about themselves.

They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi. Who did they think they were dealing with? They finally pushed things too far and everyone else is fed up and now they will get what they have brought upon themselves.

The real chutzpah is that the haredim are acting like they are surprised by the way they are being treated. Where did they think this was going? Who in the world thinks they can have an entire population of unemployed people who receive tremendous amounts of funds from the government and don’t participate in ensuring the physical safety of the country? What other possible result could there be to the system they set up other than the rest of Israel finally getting fed up and taking it all away?

The delusions of some of the people on this thread is funny

zahavasdad: Teachers are employed. Only Israel considered teachers to be NOT WORKING, and then only in the frum schools. If they were “learning” in a university, they would be considered employed. If an advanced student studying Talmud who lives off of stipends paid to students is in a yeshiva he is unemployed in Israel, but if he is in the university he is employed.

And that doesn’t count the huge number of people who are actually working off the books, but need to avoid the army since the army (except for select units) is hostile to haredim (you will know if the army changed when you hear of promising well connected officers being dismissed for being anti-hareidi, just as in the 1960s the US starting dismissing officers for racism – it hasn’t happened yet).

Mobe613 -“The charedim have brought this all on themselves”

You’re right – they should never have taken anything from the Zionists.

“and in the process have created one of the biggest chil hashems in history.”

You don’t know what a Chillul Hashem is.

“There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army.”

There is absolutely no basis for serving.

“But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve.”

How did you figure this one out?

And the reason is because going to the army is against the Torah.

“Charedim should have approached the secular like chabad, with warmth and understanding and tried to be mekarev them, instead they just pushed them away by being selfish and worrying only about themselves.”

Who do you think all these Kiruv orgs are for – Charedim?

“They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi. Who did they think they were dealing with? They finally pushed things too far and everyone else is fed up and now they will get what they have brought upon themselves.”

They are -whether some Zionists understands this or not.

zahavasdad -“The African Americans worked”

It’s quite obvious you didn’t grow up in the inner city like I did.

Your posts are so typical of liberalism in this country – they read their lib books and other media in school and then they think it’s reality. Sorry, liberalism is the farthest from Truth.

“University education is for a limited amount of time, usually 4 years for a BA, 2 More for a Masters After that you work.”

I now get paid, after earning a PhD, but I’m still constantly learning — keeping up with scientific developments and making small contributions to knowledge.

The difference between yeshiva and university is that in the former we learn what HaShem wants from us and in the latter we learn about HaShem’s creations.

Mobe613:

“There is absolutely no basis for not serving in the army.”

What are you talking about?! Li’halacha, one is not supposed to stop learning to perform a mitzva that is efsher la’asos al yiday achairim, can be performed by somebody else.

“If learning is important they can learn before and after, and if they were truly interested in doing their part the army would have worked out a system where they could continue learning while they serve.”

Any time spent serving cannot be spent learning. The Chareidim would rather be learning.

“But it is obvious, and has always been obvious, that the chareidim just dont want to serve. Some of them are just scared, and some of them (especially the leadership) are afraid that once their population is our in the real world they will realize that they dont need to be charedi and that their roshei yeshiva have been wrong about some things.”

It is obvious, and always has been, that the Lapidnicks don’t just want the Chareidim to “share the burden”. Instead, they view the Chareidim as a backwards, evil cult that must be destroyed at all costs.

“They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi.”

Aha. So looking good is more important than doing what’s actually right?

GAW:

“the Charaidim are practicing Jim Crow. (although I don’t agree that it can be compared either way) This is with their “separate but equal” access to the Kotel, “separate but equal” bussing & exclusive neighborhoods for Charaidim only (to the point where they regulate what visitors are allowed to wear and physically assault those who do not comply). It is bigotry, pure and simple.”

You do realize that everything you just called “bigotry” is all pure halacha, right?

Kanoi Next Door-

I said- “They claim that they are protecting the state by learning, but you would have to be a delusional charedi to think that is an argument that would actually convince anyone that isnt charedi.”

You said- “Aha. So looking good is more important than doing what’s actually right?”

No. My point is not that it is more important to look good. My point is simply to say, what did the charedim think was going to happen eventually?

They might think that learning is protecting the rest of the country (and they might even be right), but the should be smart enough to realize that the rest of the country doesn’t think that.

So they set themselves up to fail by basing their community on an argument that, by definition, is not going win over the rest of Israeli society. They should have planned ahead more and compromised since the uncompromising position was doomed to failure.

I don’t think they should have compromised but they definitely made political mistakes. Likud also lost because of these kinds of tactics. For example, both Likud and chareidim attacked Bennett before the election and it is no surprise that Bennett felt that he needed to take revenge on both.