Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › BTs vs. OTDs
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January 31, 2013 12:25 pm at 12:25 pm #608022ConfuciousMember
Are there more Baalei Teshuvos than Off the Derech people (considering both children and adults)? How large is the disparity in numbers between these two classes of people?
January 31, 2013 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #925774TheGoqParticipantIt doesn’t matter they are all Hashem’s children.
January 31, 2013 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #925775Veltz MeshugenerMemberIt’s hard to figure out numbers generally, but it would be even harder to figure out what the numbers mean, because the population of potential baalei teshuva is much larger than the population of potential OTD. Also, in the area between yeshivish and not frum, where many, many OTD and Baalei teshuva find themselves, it is not always easy to define frumkeit. Are people who live in Lakewood, go to yeshiva, and periodically text on shabbos frum? What if they volunteer for tomchei shabbos? How about people who live in Memphis, keep shabbos (by not driving or turning on lights, but they also don’t have two sit down meals with kiddush etc.) and kosher but don’t wear a yarmulka and have never been in a shul?
January 31, 2013 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #925776zahavasdadParticipantNobody really knows.
Kiruv organizations love to promote how many BT’s they made, but notbody mentions how many OTD’s there are in a community.
I am sure OTD people and organizations will promote and exxaggerate this number as well.
January 31, 2013 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #925777akupermaParticipant1. No one has done a systematic study, and there are a lot of definitions to be played with. If some is raised Hasidische in Boro Park, and ends up being modern in New Jersey, are they off the derech, and in the reverse, are they BTs (i.e. the Young Israel kid who grows up to be a Boro Park adult)? Lines get to be very fuzzy, especially if you want a clear border between frum and not-frum, which in essence is what is needed for a neat BT/OTD discussion.
2. If you look at published Shailohs and advice columns, you’ll note that until the 1960s you were more likely to read about frum parents asking how to act when they visited their treff kids, and since then more likely to be about the BT kid asking how to deal with their non-frum parents.
3. When secular Jews study the matter, they focus on shul membership, which is problematic since many members of modern orthodox shuls are not frum by any definition, and many orthodox Jews don’t join a shul (especially in big cities, and especially among hasidim – traditionally being a member meant accepting financial responsibility for the shul as opposed to being someone who came regularly to daven there).
January 31, 2013 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #925778popa_bar_abbaParticipantIf you could be either one, and had to be one, which one would you be?
January 31, 2013 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #925779NaftushMemberThere’s no reliable answer because neither group maintains membership lists. In 1998, I attempted to estimate the matter by merging several large-scale polls and came to the astonishing conclusion that nearly half of the adults in Israel make some significant change in their religious orientation at least once in their lives (meaning that some make more than one). This was years ago and concerned only Israelis, but …
January 31, 2013 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #925780Veltz MeshugenerMemberAkuperma: At risk of making people’s head explode, what happens if you grow up passively Chassidish in Willy, and end up actively MO in Teaneck – are you then a baal teshuva, because you went from rote performance of a religion in which you weren’t engaged to one in which you were? What if you were brought up frum but then don’t pay the amount of taxes that you owe? What if you were brought up in skver and have the internet? Are you OTD? What if you then get rid of the internet and only watch movies? Are you then both OTD and BT?
January 31, 2013 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #925781nishtdayngesheftParticipantZD,
You are wrong yet once again. There was a whole magazine Klal Perspectives, recently about kiruv and the consensus was that they cannot tabulate the number of Ba’alei Teshuvah and there is no point in doing so. On the contrary, we hear all sorts of numbers of people going of the derech. Some of which I believe you yourself conjured on some of the other threads here.
January 31, 2013 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #925782MDGParticipantJanuary 31, 2013 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #925783MDGParticipantnishtdayngesheft,
Why are you arguing with ZD here when he said that no one knows. You said to him “Some of which I believe you yourself conjured”, but he said, “Nobody really knows.”
January 31, 2013 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #925784zahavasdadParticipantSomepeople like to troll
January 31, 2013 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #925785akupermaParticipantLet’s have more fun with the definition problem – you grew up in Williamsburg but never davened with kavanah, cheated a bit on waiting six hours, talked about politics during davening — then you ran away from home, went to college, wear a kippuh srugah and daven in a Young Israel – but you actually daven during davening, never discuss politics on Shabbos, and learn all day. Or vice versa? Which is OTD and which is a BT?
How about a Shomer Shabbos thief? What about a “conservadox” or “conservative” who totally gives up on kashruth and Shabbos (OTD or doesn’t count to start with). How about a totally assimilated Jew who adopts ingredient kashruth and stops working on Shabbos, but perhaps will turn on a light – but won’t go to his job.
A good frum sociologist might dream up an index to measure frumkeit for comparison purposes. It is interesting to note that frum institutions at all levels are growing, and non-frum ones are shrinking – but that may be due to birth rates more than anything else.
January 31, 2013 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #925786ToiParticipantzdad- and sometimes irony just punches you in the face. even when you didnt ask it to.
January 31, 2013 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #925787zahavasdadParticipantThere is more than one troll on this site
January 31, 2013 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #925788zahavasdadParticipantWhat about a follower of Aharon and goes OTD and follows Zalman
January 31, 2013 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #925789Veltz MeshugenerMemberAkuperma: Your point about institutions is susceptible to the same definitional problems as individuals.
January 31, 2013 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #925790MorahRachMemberDid you actually write, ” between these two classes of people”. Excuse me while I vomit.
I would rather be OTD then think that Judaism is a class system.
January 31, 2013 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #925791popa_bar_abbaParticipantI would rather be Untouchable than think that every time someone classifies people, that implies a class system.
January 31, 2013 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #925792MorahRachMemberDid he/she not write ” between these 2 classes of people”? Is that NOT a very common way of thinking in the CR. I know you try to use your wit to make a point by being ” funny”, but this is not funny.
January 31, 2013 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #925793popa_bar_abbaParticipantSorry, but I simply don’t agree with you. The term class can be used to describe any classification, and there is nothing inherently offensive about this classification.
January 31, 2013 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #925794HealthParticipantHere is a question to all:
Is it easier for a BT to go OTD than a FFB?
January 31, 2013 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #925795popa_bar_abbaParticipantYou are asking if it is easier? Or if it is statistically more likely? Or some other question.
January 31, 2013 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #925796popa_bar_abbaParticipantAlso, I heard that in Israel they call people who are OTD…?????? ?????.
Hee hee. Snort.
January 31, 2013 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #925797ConfuciousMemberI’d definitely say it is easier for a BT to go OTD than for an FFB. It going back to somewhere he already was, whereas for an FFB it is breaking new ground. I’d also say it is more prevelent with BTs (percentage wise).
I don’t have actual numbers to know that, though.
January 31, 2013 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #925798☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantYou are asking if it is easier? Or if it is statistically more likely?
Those are probably related.
January 31, 2013 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #925799gavra_at_workParticipantI would rather be OTD then think that Judaism is a class system.
Of course it is. From the Mishna in Keddushin:
?,? ???? ?????? ??? ????–?????, ????, ??????, ????, ???, ??????, ?????, ?????, ?????, ??????. ????? ???? ???????, ?????? ???? ?? ???. ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??????, ?????? ???? ?? ???. ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ?????, ?????? ???? ?? ???.
That’s not to say one can not rise above their caste via becoming a Talmid Chacham (similar to a serf joining the priesthood in the middle ages), but it certainly exists in Halacha.
January 31, 2013 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #925800☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantDid you actually write, ” between these two classes of people”. Excuse me while I vomit.
Please go to the ladies’ room to do so. It’s not much better than changing a diaper in public. 🙂
I would rather be OTD then think that Judaism is a class system.
Really? You’d really prefer to be mechallel Shabbos, eat tarfus, violate various issurim related to arayos, etc., than think that there’s a difference between someone who keeps the Torah and someone who doesn’t?
January 31, 2013 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #925801Veltz MeshugenerMemberDY: While I agree with PBA that there is nothing inherently objectionable with the use of the word “class”, because it simply implies a distinction, I think that what she meant was that as a practical matter it is impossible to classify someone as keeping the Torah vs. not keeping the Torah in any meaningful way.
January 31, 2013 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #925802☕ DaasYochid ☕Participantit is impossible to classify someone as keeping the Torah vs. not keeping the Torah in any meaningful way.
The fact that there are cases which are “grey” does not mean there there isn’t a clear difference between the general “classes”. If you want a bit more black and white, we can start with the halachic definition, e.g. shomer Shabbos vs. mechallel Shabbos (b’farhesia).
January 31, 2013 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #925803MorahRachMemberAs much as I dislike this thread and want to stay out of it I want to point something out. Daasyochid, are you male? If I am wrong then forgive this post. You are typing a smiley face to me which in the real world is flirtatious, yet you do it. But agree with a caste system I’m Judaism, putting yourself higher than those who let’s say wear srugies or are mechalel shabbos.
January 31, 2013 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #925804ConfuciousMemberThose who aren’t mechallel Shabbos are definitely higher than those who are mechallel Shabbos. I doubt anyone will disagree with this fact.
January 31, 2013 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #925805gavra_at_workParticipantYou are typing a smiley face to me which in the real world is flirtatious, yet you do it.
I didn’t know that. In the CR, it has been posted that a smiley means that you are making a joke, meaning he doesn’t actually expect you to vomit in public.
I will try to remember that. How would someone point out that they are making a joke?
January 31, 2013 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #925806popa_bar_abbaParticipant@GAW 😉
January 31, 2013 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #925807gavra_at_workParticipant@GAW 😉
PumFakert! The “wink” of the semicolon makes it more flirtatious! Dos iz a Rayah that it has to be something else.
January 31, 2013 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #925808write or wrongParticipantConfucious-“I’d definitely say it is easier for a BT to go OTD than for an FFB. It going back to somewhere he already was, whereas for an FFB it is breaking new ground. I’d also say it is more prevelent with BTs (percentage wise).”
I’d definitely disagree with this. A BT has made an informed choice to leave the secular world and embrace the religious one, while an FFB is just continuing in the path of his parents. It’s not about “breaking new ground”, it’s about temptation. The BT has already been there and saw the sheker. But the FFB might think the grass looks greener…
January 31, 2013 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #925809zahavasdadParticipantI will have to agree that its probably easier for a BT to go OTD than an FFB and the reason is , An FFB might be disowned by his family and have to go out on their own.
A BT might be embraced by their non-religious family because they gave up “Talibanism”
January 31, 2013 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #925810ZeesKiteParticipantWOW, Right on!! I’ve heard that too. A lot of BT come back with full zest, while the FFB look outside perhaps longingly.. And, I think, that’s another reason why a BT stands higher than a tzaddik gamur. His/her new ever-burning zest to strive for Ratzon HaShem.
But then again one must make sure this BT has gone through the proper process, headed completely in the right direction, else…
February 1, 2013 4:15 am at 4:15 am #925812HealthParticipantwrite or wrong -“I’d definitely disagree with this. A BT has made an informed choice to leave the secular world and embrace the religious one, while an FFB is just continuing in the path of his parents. It’s not about “breaking new ground”, it’s about temptation. The BT has already been there and saw the sheker. But the FFB might think the grass looks greener…”
You’d have a valid point if there was only one reason that people become Frum and that is that they saw the light. I’d say most have more than one reason that they become Frum -like coming from a dysfunctional family. So all in all, I think it’s easier for a BT to go back to their old ways. Maybe not all BT’s, but a good portion of them. And I’ve seen this with my own eyes. Sometimes when the going gets tough -some BT’s get going.
February 1, 2013 5:35 am at 5:35 am #925813☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantMorahRach,
You are very being very judgemental to assume that I was ch”v being inappropriate. As GAW pointed out, it simply means that I was joking (thanks, GAW, for having my back). I used it in this case to demonstrate that that my first comment was not made to offend, yet you used the emoticon to attack me. Let’s call it even, with the IDF issue.
Am I better than a mechallel Shabbos? I’ll suspend judgement on that until 120. Meanwhile, I am kasher l’eidus, my wine is muttar, my shechita is acceptable, and it is assur to speak loshon hora about me (I am included in the class, or klal, if you will, of “amisecha”). A mechallel Shabbos is not.
A shomer Shabbos is bichlal amisecha regardless of the material his kippah is made from. I think it’s terrible of you to classify him together with the mechallel Shabbos. I would have assumed that you attributed that sinah to me, but since I am bitterly against such a classification, and have never expressed such a disgusting sentiment, I am forced to assume that this is your own twisted opinion.
(Okay, that last bit was rhetorical, but it really was unfair of you to put hateful words in my mouth.)
February 1, 2013 9:51 am at 9:51 am #925814Geordie613ParticipantHistorically, a frum person has been defined as one who is shomer shabbos.
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