Where to buy organic apples for a decent price in Brooklyn?

I suggest you search Consumer Reports or similar publications for exposes about the “organic” agricultural products. Last time I read the articles, they indicated that this “organic” market has no way of establishing that the products ostensibly grown under “organic” conditions are the same as those sold as such. It suggested that it is as likely to buy fruit in any old supermarket or fruit store that not labeled anything and it is actually grown by an “organic” grower as it is to purchase from a specialty “organic” store and to wind up with fruit grown under regular conditions. Maybe something changed, but I got the message that the “organic” industry is completely unreliable to bring their products to market.

I assume that the Flatbush Food Co-op on Cortelyou Rd has them. I often wondered, how one really knows that the so called “organic” food is really organic. Are there equivilents to hechsarim? What keeps someone from selling regular produce as organic?

Yaakov Doe: Yes, there is equivalent to hechsarim. Organic certification agencies inspect farms. They are very strict. A farmer has to cease using non-organic inputs for three years, and only after that can the produce by certified organic. The federal government (USDA) promulgates organic standards, which are enforced by certification agencies. Many organic growers intentionally go “beyond” organic by using additional practices they’ve developed.

There are some small farms who use organic methods, with no spraying of pesticides or artificial fertilizers, yet who don’t get organic certification because of the cost. If you go to a farmer’s market, some farmers will have signs saying “no spray.” It’s not as reliable as organic certification, but many people trust the individual farmers and enjoy getting to know them as they buy from them each week.

As for whether it’s healthier, there are conflicting studies. Many studies show that non-organic produce contains small amounts of pesticides. The effects on health of such small amounts are in most cases unknown but as these are often carcinogens or hormone-disrupting chemicals, many epidemiologists believe they may have negative health effects.

Other studies have shown that organic produce has more vitamins and anti-oxidants than non-organic produce — so while it costs more, you may be getting more nutrition. Other studies have contested this finding, and claim that there is no difference. Mark Bittman has a good recent column critiquing a recent study that purported to show organics are no better.

In my opinion, it is probably better for health, though we can’t know for sure and it depends on the vegetables (some absorb or are grown with more pesticides than others). What’s not controversial is the fact that organic agriculture pollutes far less than non-organic. Pesticide run off kills fish and aquatic wildlife, and has created a huge “dead zone” in the Gulf of Mexico. Nearly all this pollution is unececessary, because organic methods produce similar or even higher yields (though labor costs are higher).

Yaakov: Well, there are stickers on many organic produce items. Regardless, organic advocates have some complaints about the system, and it may not be perfect (as with hechsherim as we all know), but I’ve never heard that there is a widespread problem with produce being labelled as organic that is not organic.

In the store I normally shop at, the store owners mainly buy from local producers who drive straight there from the farm, and large organic farms in California that distribute their produce across the country. There are not numerous middlemen. The store owners strongly believe in organics, and would not buy from any distribution company if there was the slightest suspicion of that company falsely labeling something organic. They may or may not fear Heaven, but they respect their own newfangled eco-ethics, that’s for sure.

BearIsBack, I’ve never heard the claim before that organic produce actually kills people. I don’t think that’s correct. Food poisoning outbreaks have occurred with both organic and non-organic produce; I’ve never seen evidence that it’s organic methods as such that cause the outbreaks.

Organic is fraudulent.

Buy stam apples and peel them and wash them and that should eliminate any chashash of pesticides.

WIY: Yes, organic produce, unlike most non-organic produce, does not contain pesticides. But don’t base your opinion of organics on CR posters alone. I recommend reading a recent article by Mark Bittman, “That Flawed Stanford Study.” Planting your own apple tree is also a good idea — a single tree can produce a huge number of apples each year, once it’s mature.

WIY, I’ve never heard of people selling fake organic food. It might occasionally happen, but there’s no way it happens on a large scale. Organic agriculture is practiced by thousands of farms, some of them very small, but it’s big business — and some of these California farms are huge corporations. Corporations like that don’t mess around when it comes to counterfeit goods. If people were selling fake organics, the industry wouldn’t stand for it for a minute.

If fraud were really an issue, the best place to go would probably be a health food-oriented food co-op, because the people running the place really believe in organics. At the (out of town) place I shop, I think they actually subsidize the prices of organic produce to make it less expensive than it would be otherwise, to encourage people to buy produce rather than processed food.

Sorry — I’m not a good source of information on how to grow apple trees in Brooklyn. I’m sure there are nurseries there with knowledgeable people. It would probably take a few years, unless you bought a pretty mature tree. You would have to make sure you pick the apples so there isn’t a big mess of rotting apples piling up under the tree (as happens with apple trees planted outside of stores where I live.)

If you have the time, though, and Brooklyn’s climate will allow it, that would be a fun thing to do. I’d like to have my own apple or pear trees one day myself. I’ve had my own community garden plot for the last couple years, which is a nice way to grow a lot of cheap vegetables, making my family eat more veggies than we otherwise would.