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The Gaon issued several cherem against Chassidim – in 1777, 1781 and letters of 1796.
Have these cherem expired and/or become annulled? if so – when and how?
Do these cherem apply today? If so – to what extent?
It appears that chassidim have been fully accepted by mainstream klal yisroel, so what ever became of the cherem signed by the Gra and many leading gdolim of that time?
Didn’t R’ Chaim Volozhiner remove it?
Its funny how you think the Litivish/yeshivish world is mainstream klal yisroel…do you really think that it is the same as the time by the Gaon?.Its also funny as how you accept the Gaon but not the Baal Shem Tov for some reason as authority on matters.Its also funny that you decided to make this a topic because even if you accept that the cherem still stands,you will do nothing about it.
I am a chossid.BH.I love the Vilna Gaon.Opposite of whatever he was trying to accomplish.
1) The cherem was applied against certain people practicing certain specific practices. a) Those people no longer exist (a cherem does not carry over to as of yet unborn children) and b) those specific practices are no longer practiced by anyone. (Even in the absence of point “b”, point “a” still applies and is sufficient on its own.)
2) The gedolei talmidim of the Gra recognized the error of the cherem in the first place and recognize it is inapplicable. This is evidenced by the fact that the spiritual heirs of the Gra today completely intermarry their children with Chasidim’s children, they learn in Chasidish yeshivos and accept Chasidish bochorim and yungerleit into their Litvish yeshivos, and sit and work with Chasidish Gedolim on Torah and communal matters on the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah and other Torah bodies that are fully integrated with both Chasidish gedolim and Litvish gedolim who are followers of the Vilna Gaon.
Astrix don’t nitpick I don’t think he was trying to be mevazeh chassidim. It’s normal for a litvak to follow the Gra over the Besht. And the truth is that mainstream yiddishkeit at the time was the way of the Gra. The whole point the Baal Shem Tov was making was to make a change to make yiddishkeit more accessible to the am ha’aretz.
Derech HaMelech: The idea that the Besht was focusing on the am haratzim is an untruth that has been propogated by the maskilim.
Shmoel, it says as much in Chassidishe seforim.
Astrix, Gra was a bigger talmud chocham than BeShT.
The whole point the Baal Shem Tov was making was to make a change to make yiddishkeit more accessible to the am ha’aretz.
Just like the whole point of Zionism is to make Eretz Yisroel more accessible to the am ha’aretz and the Talmud Chochom and every Jew in between, and increase observance of the wonderful Mitzwah of Yishuv Ho’Oretz.
mdd: In your opinion. Others may differ. And in which seforim, specifically?
shmendrik: See Part 1 of my post.
Naysberg – are you saying that the Gra made an error and his talmidim were wiser than him and recognized the error? That is like kfira in emunas chachomim!
Im just curious-Do you believe that rabbis cant make mistakes, and to say so would be wrong?
I have heard that some early Chasidim were rather unusual. Because of the chastisement of the Litvaks to the Chassidim that they are more mainstream.
Shmendric, divrei Achronim and Rishonim contain statements where one Godol says another one made a mistake.
Just a couple of questions/points.
1) Does emunas chachomim mean to believe that our Rabbis can never be wrong?
2) Moshe spoke directly with hashem. Our rabbonim dont. Its not right to compare the two.
A few points:
1. The cherem of the Gra against the chassidim marked perhaps the end of the cherem as an effective punitive tool. Then, and since then, the cherem has been at best ineffective, often a bad joke, and at worst, a chillul hashem.
2. The cherem against the chassidim was a colossal mistake that was unfortunately repeated. Read Wilenski’s “Chassidim U’misnagdim” for proof. It’s two volumes and worth every page.
3. The “way of the Gra” was not the norm in his time. Even the city of Vilna did not accept his minhagim. Today, his minhagim are followed among only select groups, and even that on a pick and choose basis. Yes, even amongst the prushim in Yerushalayim.
4. Comparing the lomdus of the Besht vs. the Gra is as fruitful as comparing the lomdus (l’havdil) of Bach vs. Rembrandt.
the chofetz chaim used to say that he doesnt think there any chassidim left and therefore the cherem doesn’t apply however if it does apply it is only for lubabitch and breslov. however i would venture that today it would only apply to breslov and weneed a new onefor chabad
is anyone still taking this shmendrik seriously?
Our chachomin and Gedolim have syata dishmaya not to be nichshal in “mistakes” (as it says Hashem Imo). To start thinking that they might be mistaken is to question our Emunas chachomin.
So those Rabbanin who said to stay in Europe when the Nazis came were not mistaken
Do you really think that our “gedolim” are on the level of Moshe Rabbenu?!
Actually they are not.Not even close.Moshe was a rea leader of Klal Yisroel.People actually listened to him. Today we have gedolim in torah but not in leadership and people in America def dont listen to them so they are not our leaders.Please tell me the last time you followed a gadol’s psak against the internet,cell phones,way of dress,not working,etc,etc?
The Gaon was a huge tzaddik but it also doesnt make sense just to follow him over the baal shem tov.The way yeshivas learn today and teach Hashkfah(minus Emunah) is not the way the Vilna Gaon had planned.Even in Volizhin they learned a daf a day with rishonim.We made up our own system though.
Minhag oker halacha
Silly question, but if chasidim can say that the gra made a mistake, i believe we can tell chasidim that reb yoel made a mistake too? or that we nullify his ban? or does this nullification deal only work one way?
mdd: The Chasidishe Seforim say no such thing.
Shmendrik: Your formulation of Emunas Chachamim in this thread and calling it an Ikar Emunah is probably in and of itself Apikorsus, certainly according to the Rambam.
Shmendric,You seem to think that the Gra simply goofed and his talmidim chapped that their Rebbe goofed up! That’s your quote.
Are you aware that Rabeinu Yonah had them burn the copies of the Yad Hachazakah of the Rambam?Are you aware that afterwards 24 wagonloads of sifrei kodesh were burned which prompted him to retract and to write his epic sefer on teshuva? Are you aware that everyone learns Rambam today — Litvaks and Chassidim alike?
I think you picked a truly fitting title for your username
Do you really think that our “gedolim” are on the level of Moshe Rabbenu?!
Actually they are not.Not even close
Actually: ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ????? (????? ??, ?) ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? (???? ?, ?) ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ????? ????:
Rosh Hashana 25b
Reish Lakish once put a Ganav in Cherem, who in turn put Reish Lakish in Cherem. Reish Lakish was told that since his Cherem was Shelo Kedin — since a Ganav doesn’t get Cherem — his Cherem is not valid and the one against him stands. This is because for putting someone in Cherem Shelo Kedin you can deserve a Cherem.
So,
What is the text of the more Halachicaly valid Cherem by the Talmidei Hamagid?
Does it still apply?
To whom did it apply?
Does it apply to learning the Sefarim of those whom it referred to?
kohain,
Every one always learned the Rambam. They had an issue with the Moreh Nevuchim, which they still do — although, now we treat it with Kavod. They burned the Moreh. Afterwards, in France 24 wagonloads of Sefarim were burned. On bottom they saw the Yad. This was taken as a sign that it was a retribution for burning the Rambam’s Moreh Nevuchim. From then on, although learning it was still not encouraged, it was treated properly.
I know people enjoy drawing parallels to the Rambam and any particular controversial Hashkafic person, but it is a bad comparison. The Rambam was recognized in his day, and his Sefer Yad Chazaka spread far and wide very fast.
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