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If we’d be as busy checking for offenders as checking for bugs…
We go to Shiurim to learn how to carefully check for bugs. Why not have Shiurim on how to check for and remove — offenders? Many offenders roam the streets freely, with our knowledge, and are protected in the US and abroad. Why are we more careful to check for and remove bugs?
Is there a Torah prohibition to check for and remove molesters/offenders, that Im not aware of?
Somehow, many of us have no problem being Motzei Shem Ra on victims and allow them to be intimidated. Is this a Mitzvah? Usually when theres smoke, there has been fire.
What message are we sending our youth and young adults who are aware of this position in our community? Isnt this hypochrisy souring them on frumkeit? Is being more careful to remove bugs than perps, and leave innocents in harm’s way, the Torah way?
Yasher Koach to Rabbi Horowitz of Project Yes, for protecting and not further punishing victims! May he be Gezunt un Shtark!
I don’t know you, or about you, but I wouldn’t poke fun or belittle mitzvohs, or aveiros. No. I wouldn’t mock the precautions one must take lest one chalila be oiver on 6 aveiros per bite. No, not something to mock, belittle, poke fun. No. No s’char for that. At all.
You do have an excellent point about the abuse, the attempt to hush things, and the effort being done to combat that. That is serious. Pretty serious. But no need to belittle one of HaShem’s special mitzvohs for another.
The abuse coverup IMO is the BIGGEST Chilul Hashem and the greatest threat to charedi Judaism and its fairly easy to fix.
In general society abusers are considered the lowest of the low, nobody like abusers, just look at Penn State or the Catholic Church. Harboring them not hurts more people, It hurts Rabbinic leadership and does cause people not to listen and not respect Rabbenim. People dont respect abusers and they dont respect people who habor abusers.
Every averiah caused by someone who went OTD because of abuse and rabbinic coverup of the abuser is a stain on the community
A person cannot be accused, tried, and punished without two simultaneous valid witnesses. Therefore: Vigilance Vigilance, Vigilance.
If that is how you’d like to phrase it, by all means. I just didn’t like the tone used (4 times) to downplay the hilchos bdikas tolaim – I think there’s a portion of shulchan aruch on that. If you didn’t intend to, then I beg your pardon.
Now why it’s “very low .. of importance”, I think that being that not everyone is in position of power, know-how, courage, not everyone is suited for that job. That’s a job for people of stature – sanhedrin are commanded to root out and rid out evil doers, not anyone and everyone can take the law into one’s own hands.
However EVERYONE is commanded not to eat forbidden foods.
And as you can see, I haven’t made it to the little leagues yet.
Why do people assume that it’s of little importance to the community? Because they aren’t privy to the investigations and precautions taking place without publicity?
Just because you don’t know something, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Daas: The people that spout that it is of little importance and/or the community does little about it, are the typical anti-semites. Granted these anti-semites claim they don’t hate all Jews, just hate certain categories of Jews (i.e. chareidim), but they are the typical self-hating anti-semites nevertheless that hate and lie simply for the sake of hating and lying.
“Usually when there’s smoke, there has been fire.”
Is that enough of a reason to besmirch a person? Because of “usually”? I’m not saying that there shouldn’t be an investigation, but the reason why you aren’t privy to all the info is b/c we don’t believe in publicizing every child’s accusations! (Yes, I know of a child who made an accusation-I’ll leave out the details- that turned out to be untrue.)
I do believe that parents need to teach their children to beware. I do believe that schools need to make sure that students aren’t left alone with teachers and I do believe that every accusation should be taken seriously! But I also believe that every accusation shouldn’t be spread across the NY Times before we ascertain that the child is telling the truth!
Now why it’s “very low .. of importance”, I think that being that not everyone is in position of power, know-how, courage, not everyone is suited for that job. That’s a job for people of stature – sanhedrin are commanded to root out and rid out evil doers, not anyone and everyone can take the law into one’s own hands.
However EVERYONE is commanded not to eat forbidden food
Which is a bigger Chilul Hashem, The Mayor of NYC eating in an obvious treif restaurant or a court case currently occuring in Brookyln.
I’m with funnybone. I know of a case where a child made accusations that were untrue, and certain people in leadership positions, possibly feeling guilty because they had dropped the ball in an earlier abuse case, assumed the child was telling the truth. It’s just as bad to assume the accused is a molester as to assume the child is making it up. All these cases need to be investigated thoroughly by unbiased authorities.
Certainly insisting that there is no problem eating tolaim is a greater chilul Hashem than a trial in Brooklyn.
Considering that chilul Hashem is based on causing other to be oiver on aveiros.
Also tweeting from the trial is a huge chilul Hashem, in my opinion.
And one has to wonder about someone who’s job is fundraising just to fund his own pocket. Yet using an organizations name and exemption to do so. When this person is providing no benefits for such organization.
Is that enough of a reason to besmirch a person? Because of “usually”?
Chazal/Dovid Hamelech were Mesaken guidelines in to avoid situations such as in this trial (i.e. Hilchos YICHUD!). If this person chose not to follow Chazal, that is good reason to say “when there is smoke, there is fire”.
I don’t have the details of this trial, but not every time that a Rebbe/Morah speaks to a child in an office (which others can enter at any time) is there a “good reason to to say when there is smoke, there is fire.” This issue is true for the tutors and specialties as well, they all need some privacy yet we need to have people entering and leaving at will. Some children might still have accusations and they need to be taken seriously, although not as an absolute truth.
Do not accuse an innocent- to do so is a very grave sin.
ready now – I think that when abuse charges are first made we may be unsure if they occurred or not. WHILE I am in the mode of “not knowing the facts” or “not being 100% certain” I am welcome to refrain from assuming guilt but I would have NOOOOOO business running fundraisers and crying innocent. NOT ONE person, aside of the abused, knows for certain that this molester DID NOT do what he is accused of. They have less PROOF of his innocence than there is “proof” of his guilt. They are jumping on bandwagons and should be ashamed of themselves. And any of them who are privy to information that they are sitting on, I am comforted knowing Hashem is Just.
He is an innocent man now , because he hasnt been proven guilty “yet”.
Besides his defense is not im innocent, but rather She caused it
Syag,
Your comment is silly in that you assume that a person has no right to defense. I don’t know this case nor am I following it, but it is quite likely that there a goodly number if people who know this man. And they believe they know him well and know that he could not have done such a thing. They may also know the other side and believe that they are completely likely to have made this up for whatever reason.
In that case it is understandable why he had supporters who are doing what they can to help him.
America’s obsession with being anti-child abuse stems from their worship of youth. Unfortunately this is becoming more common in the Jewish world as well. Everyone should take it easy. The greatest threat to Chareidi Judaism?? Give me a break.
The victim in this case is the falsely accused.
Abusers must be kicked out of the community like an insect on a vegetable.
If there was one insect in your lettuce would you eat it assuming you knew it was there and couldnt remove it?
There must be ZERO tolerance for abusers
There are no witnesses to any supposed infringement of yihud.
Then it should be easy to prove his innocence, as at all sessions (which he agrees he did have) there was an additional female (Yichud is with 2 males as well). I await the proof.
Then it should be easy to prove his innocence, as at all sessions (which he agrees he did have) there was an additional male (Yichud is with 2 females as well). I await the proof.
(Sorry for the misspeak)
GAW,
I have no knowledge of this case, but why do you assume the burden of proof, even regarding yichud, is on the defense?
I have no knowledge of this case, but why do you assume the burden of proof, even regarding yichud, is on the defense?
I have no knowledge of the case, but I know the proof is always on the prosecution, Now if the Prosecution brought up the Yichud issue , The defense would need to refute that evidence otherwise the Jury can use that as proof of guilt and will convict
ZD, they would first have to prove yichud, and even if they did, although that would certainly reflect poorly on him, it wouldn’t prove a bigger crime.
My point to GAW is that he seems to assume yichud, and I don’t know how he knows that there was.
Still nothing. Forget it.
Comparing an insect to a human being whether guilty or not, is really “off”.
A Rasha does things that is a tremondous Chilul Hashem, And even in Prison there are some crimes that even the worst murderer cant stand
Accusing someone without proof is a huge avera (all averos are huge) and is a hillul Hashem.
Ready now
How is accusing someone without proof an Aveira? If you stole from me but I can’t prove it because I am the only witness I commit an aveira for accusing you when I saw you steal my object?! No logic in this.
It is not an avera to take someone to a din Torah and accuse them of stealing from you. You can make a direct private accusation to the person you suspect.
The case discussed in this thread in not theft.
This is a different case. To succeed in Jewish law it also requires a level of proof that is not used by the secular courts.
That is why the accusation is an avera – because it brings a Jewish person to non-Jewish law and thereby creates a hillul Hashem. It is against Jewish law to take a Jewish person to a secular court.
That is why I wrote above –
(by prejudging)
and
More and more Gedolim are realizing the seriousness of this Averiah and the Chilul Hashem it creates
A person cannot be accused, tried, and punished without two simultaneous valid witnesses.
You should learn the second siman in Choshen Mishpat and the plethora of teshuvos in the rishonim which relate to it. If/since there is no better system in place to protect the community it is very easy to Halachically justify using the American justice system.
yitayningwut
The Choshen Mishpat you refer to is still undertaken by a beis din, but under unusual conditions.
Stupid comments like:
presupposes the accused is guilty – that presupposition is chutzpadik, is against Torah, it is an avera and is punishable.
In saying “this Averiah and the Chilul Hashem it creates” he is talking about himself.
“One thing we know for sure, until now, the victims and their families suffered w a y more than the perps.”
In cases where the kid is lying, the roles are reversed: the kid is the perp, and the person alleged to be a molester is the victim. The problem with forums like this is that too many people assume that all accusers are telling the truth.
And RN
When the court convicts
Will you still maintain innocence?
When the court convicts
Will you still maintain innocence?
Won’t change much in my mind. I’ll still not know.
In case y’all are wondering. Juries in criminal cases convict something like 95%. That doesn’t necessarily mean there is something wrong with the system though; it really just means that there are so many steps before the jury where the innocent people are let off by the prosecutor or judge.
A non-Jewish court, using very flawed and non-halachic testimony, standards of evidence and rules of conviction is virtually meaningless and a guilty verdict there has no meaning.
Literally every day cases of convicts who served long years in prison — including in many cases on death row — are determined they were completely innocent and finally freed. How many more truly innocent are never exonerated we’ll never know. In such a highly flawed and destructive justice system you place your blind faith??? The very same system where the truly guilty — OJ Simpson, Lemrick Nelson, et al — are allowed to walk scot free.
If the people inside had gotten rid of them before the general public found out, there wouldnt be this mess.
It isnt the crime thats so bad, I dont blame the community for having such a person. I blame them for covering it up and raising money
ready now –
I never contradicted, nor do I disagree with that.
Its a huge averiah because it causes others to sin.
Eating Lobster , is your sin, its rare anyway else would sin because of it. However victims of abuse go OTD and sin for the rest of their lives because some sicko wasnt dealt with and was even praised as a “Tzzadik”
Sometime I wonder if some people dont really get the difference between Haman and Mordechai
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