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For various reasons i need some non-dairy creamer in powder form. I’m in the Midwest so i will probably need to buy this online.
Does anyone know of a brand?
Coffeemate is called a non-dairy creamer but it is actually OUD.
Thank you.
A number of kosher grocery stores in the midwest have a pareve variety. I think one is Tuv Taam
I also think it is Tyv Taam, but it tastes less than delicious IMO.
The problem is that legally, they’re allowed to label it as non-dairy, since it doesn’t have the proteins which people are allergic to. However, many of them contain sodium caseinate, which comes from milk, and actually gives it that milky feeling.
Want to hear something interesting? You can use the OUD non-dairy creamer in your coffee after eating meat.
It’s simple, really. If you look at the ingredient panel you’ll notice it says that it contains less than 2% milk (if you find one that doesn’t, this doesn’t apply). Now, bitul b’shishim is about 1.6% which is pretty close to that. But you aren’t drinking the creamer straight, you’re putting into your coffee. That means that there’s no chance that the milk won’t go under 1.6% of the total volume, which means it’ll automatically be batel! Normally we may not be mevatel lechatchila, but here you aren’t being mevatel any issur (the milk isn’t “issur”; you just can’t mix it with milk) so it’s allowed. (It is also possible that one is not allowed to do this type of bitul with the intention of mixing the final product with actual meat, but here that you are just drinking it after meat there is far more reason to be lenient.)
Others may disagree, but this is my opinion.
it is not Avida ltaama?
Yitay: It should also be Nikkar as it will noticeably lighten the color of the coffee.
That aside, aren’t many Poskim Meikel by powdered milk anyway that it stays Parve?
Chacham – No, it doesn’t fit the criteria. Most ingredients are meant for flavor, avida leta’ama has to be something strong and very distinctively discernible in the final product. (I don’t have access to seforim right now but see the Taz on the se’if of avida leta’ama.)
Sam – the milk isn’t nikkar, the creamer is.
Sam2 – Parve? I know some are meikel abut it needing to be cholov yisroel but I never heard parve.
No, it doesn’t fit the criteria.
If this is true,
The main purpose of including sodium caseinate in creamer is to provide a dairy flavor and also to give the creamer a thick and creamy appearance.
than it would fit. (I haven’t done enough research to know if in fact it is true and would appreciate any feedback.)
Dash – It isn’t, even assuming what you quoted to be true, because of what I wrote after that. The fact that something is there solely for flavor still does not preclude it from being ta’am kalush.
yitay: I disagree with your conclusion. It is not the accepted p’sak.
Accepted by whom exactly?
if your local supermarket cant help you quality frozen foods has it readily available and they ship all over the country (quality is the largest distributor of kosher frozen and grocery product in the ny area and supply many supermarkets across the country) on their website they list it right away just by typing creamer in search you can also call them
from: Webbe Rebbe [email protected]
to:
date: Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 3:10 PM
subject: RE: Sodium Caseinate and other Q’s
mailed-by: ou.org
Thank you for contacting the OU.
Can sodium caseinate be batel b’shishim?
As I said, others may disagree, but this is my opinion.
Syag: If you say that it’s been completely Nifsal Mei’achilah then it would no longer even be Treif (if it was from a non-Kosher animal) nor dairy.
Yitay: See this quote of R’ Shachter (Midway through the post, in hebrew)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/making-bread-in-fleishig-pan/page/2#post-360338
You may want to read the whole thread if possible. While the milk may be batel beshishim, it is certainly assur to be mevatel in order to eat it with meat. That is the accepted psak based on the Tzemach Tzedek, and brought down by the Darkei Tshuva, and Badei Hashulchan, and approved by R’ Belsky.
Uneeq – without getting into whether or not the Tzemach Tzedek is right, this case is more lenient, because you are never actually going to mix it with meat (I was bavorning this in my final parentheses).
Yitay: Within 6 hours of consumption, any meat eaten is still considered meat, whether you hold like the Rambam or like Rashi (Maran paskens both), as long as there is meat in the teeth or even just the flavor that stays in the mouth. I haven’t seen anyone argue with that.
uneeq – According to the Rema the Halacha follows Tosafos, and that which we keep six hours is a minhag. Moreover, even the Rambam/Mechaber obviously only holds it’s a chashash that there’s meat, not that there’s vadai meat. Everyone underdstands that lekulei alma waiting six hours is less chamur than actually eating them together. That’s a davar pashut.
Yitay: It should be a Davar Pashut, but I remember thinking that the Lashon of the Rambam made them sound the same.
According to the Rama, the minimum is 1 hour, which you’ve never differentiated. According to Rashi, if you have meat in your teeth, it is assur to drink milk forever until you take out the meat. That is because the meat is considered real meat. Only according to the Rambam is the meat considered considered “batel” after 6 hours, but until then, there is no difference between eating them together or drinking the milk 2 hours after. I’m sure you can explain why it’s different than washing down your mouthful of steak with a cup of milk.
The Rambam does not hold that there’s a chashash of meat as you say, rather he holds it’s vadai meat. That would also helpfully explain the Rambam’s shitta of assuring dairy after chicken, as it would have certainly been a gezaira l’gzeira if there was no vadai chicken.
What may be pashut to you, only signals a lack of understanding of Siman 89.
Sam2: I agree. I just wrote the same and didn’t see your response until after. It’s always the “pashut” topics that people tend to have wrong the wrong understanding.
The Rema writes in Darkei Moshe that one hour has no makor. The ikkar halacha according to him is that no waiting is necessary. That’s why he is maskim to the 1 hour minhag, because it doesn’t really matter. And my point about the Rambam is that there is no vadai meat between your teeth. You can’t tell me a shtickel torah based on the assumption that the Rambam holds there is always vadai meat between your teeth for 6 hours after every time you eat meat, because such an assumption makes no sense and is a pchisus in the kavod of the Rambam. And Sam, it’s possible, but you can’t be oker a davar pashut with somewhat of a mashmaus.
First off, I go with the Mechaber like many others.
Second, the Rambam holds that even cleaning your teeth within 6 hours doesn’t help. That even after cleaning one’s teeth he is choshesh for meat to be stuck in them. It is not a stretch to say that without cleaning ones teeth it is a vadai, that meat is be stuck inside. This would explain the chumra of chicken.
Thirdly, you have Rashi, who holds that the shuman stays in the mouth and gives flavor for 6 hours (aside for the problem of meat inside the teeth, which he holds is never batel, unlike the Rambam). I don’t see how you can differentiate between eating it together and eating meat and milk one after another, as we all know, ta’am ke’ikar. You may want to learn the sugya inside.
Fourthly, being that nowadays the general population (re:not everyone) accepted the halacha of the Rambam and the Rashi, an ashkenazi that is batel milk to drink after meat, is being mevatel “issur” lekatchila.
I go with the Mechaber
I don’t.
It is not a stretch to say that without cleaning ones teeth it is a vadai, that meat is be stuck inside.
For six hours, every single time? It is a stretch.
you have Rashi, who holds that the shuman stays in the mouth and gives flavor for 6 hours
It’s still not always/vadai. Besides, following Rashi and the Rambam lechumra is not the ikkar hadin either. The Tur’s lashon is ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????.
the general population (re:not everyone) accepted the halacha of the Rambam and the Rashi
You have no basis for that, and I believe it is incorrect. The minhag is in accordance with what the Rambam held lehalacha, but it is a minhag, not the ikkar hadin as the Rambam himself held; as I explained the Rema.
For six hours, every single time? It is a stretch.
It’s not a stretch. Also, consider that even karov levadai is considered vadai in every place I’ve seen.
It’s still not always/vadai. Besides, following Rashi and the Rambam lechumra is not the ikkar hadin either. The Tur’s lashon is ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????.
Some reading comprehension- Following Rashi or Rambam “LeChumra”, only applies where they argue, such as after 6 hours if there is still meat in the teeth, according to Rashi assur, Rambam, muttar. Or if one chews on meat for a baby, Rambam assurs, Rashi matirs. These arguments are what the Tur suggests that you should always be machmir. Now: If a person ate a piece of steak, Min Hadin, according to both shittos, it is assur to eat dairy within 6 hours.
It is also clear from the Taz that the Rambam, (Rashi) and Rif hold that it is assur midina, not just a chumra to eat dairy within 6 hours. Additionally, he notes, that even those that are meikil and hold one hour, (ie. obviously not bnei torah), only can rely on the Tosfos if one does Kinuach and Hadacha. (I understand that the kinuach and hadacha would downgrade the issur according to the Rambam from a issur vadai, to a chumra because of a chashash, while the mekilim hold that the one doesn’t have to be choshesh for the various possibilities.)
Then you also have the Pri Megadim, who holds that even if you have a scenario where according to both Rambam and Rashi it would be muttar to eat dairy, still he holds that during the 6 hours, lo plug rabanan and ein lifrotz geder.
The minhag is in accordance with what the Rambam held lehalacha, but it is a minhag, not the ikkar hadin as the Rambam himself held; as I explained the Rema.
Ayen the Taz 2 and Shach 9, who obviously hold that it’s not just a minhag, as minhagim are meant for everyone, not just bnei torah. Nor is it that in every argument where there are mekilim does it make the more stringent shitta just a chumro.
From the OU Daf Hakashrus:
Non-Dairy Creamer
Submitted by: Rabbi Yosef Wagner
I once asked Rav Belsky if someone can be
mevatel milk bshishim in ones coffee during
the six hour waiting period after eating meat.
[My application of this is to some non-dairy
creamers that have a little bit of milk in them
and since we do not say chanan on heter,
shishim is only needed against the little milk
in the non-dairy creamer.] He said yes, as
the minhag is on the gavra to wait six hours,
and thus would not violate ein mivatlin issur
lechatchila.
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