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How do you explain to somebody ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? It is one thing if there are conflicting opinions as to why something happened, but how would i explain to this chap about how both ?? and ????? can be right when explaining what ??? ????? wrote? He only wrote one thing?? And how can both ??”? and the ???”? be correct in ???? ???
Does anybody have a good way of explaining it?
the Torah Ohr (hagahos on Maalos ha’Torah) says that Torah which is not the halacha le’maaseh is Torah which left shamayim but never came to the aretz.
I think Pashtus is that we don’t say Eilu V’eilu (or at least not to the same extent) in a Machlokes in Metziyus. One is right and one is wrong. (However, an indeterminable historic fact may not count as a Machlokes in Metziyus, but it’s unclear why.)
I was taught that eilu v’eilu is an actual halakhic status. Even in a machlokes in metzius where one is wrong, eilu v’eilu means that you are yotze limud haTorah by learning that opinion.
Sam2: An indeterminable historical fact counts as eilu v’eilu, not because it’s a machlokes in metzius, but because there is no hachra’a so there is no reason to say that one is right and one is wrong anyway. Where there is sufficient evidence to make a serious case for both sides, IMHO it would be a machlokes in metziyus even if neither side has incontrovertible proof.
Sam2 – I think the Torah view of the world is Torah centric and the understanding of the nature of the world by someone who is coming to determine the halacha is the havanah of the world that is valid in Torah discussions.
Therefore if we have a hishtashelus in halacha so that prior generations were kovea halacha at a level that is locked out to us (for whatever reason – various discussions around why you can’t argue on a gemara) then we are also locked out of the dicussion around the havanah of the world that relates to that discussion essentially
Pcoz: Let’s say there’s a Machlokes in the Gemara about what an Amora actually said. You can’t say they both happened. They didn’t. (I feel like there’s a Gemara that references this exact point. Two people swore about what Rebbe said so one had to be wrong. Am I imagining this? If anyone remembers that Gemara please point it out.) As Itche said, since we can’t be Machria in any way we have to treat both possibilities as possibly correct (hence a sort-of Eilu V’eilu), but in this type of case it’s clear that they can’t both be true, Mah She’ein Kein when someone is Darshaning a Passuk.
In Gittin we find a Machlokes about an historical fact. When one of the Bar_Plugtos met Eliyahu Hanavi, he asked him what Hashem was doing. Eliyahu replied that Hashem is learning that Sugya that they were arguing about, and saying, Rav Evyasar B’ni Omer Kach… Hashem is quoting them on the issue. He asked, is there a question in Shamayim? Eliyahu answered, Eilu Va’eilu Divrei Elokim Chayim.
There is a lot to be gleaned from this Gemara. First of all, it can apply to an historical fact. Secondly, it is a special Madreiga that his Torah was quoted by Hashem, as the Gemara there uses this as proof of his greatness and reliability. And lastly, one Pshat might be more of a direct answer but both were true.
The Machlokes was about what made the man angry at his Pilegesh, in the story of Pilegesh Bigiv’a. Eliyahu answered that Eilu Va’eilu, first this happened and he overlooked it, then the second thing happend and he lost it.
The Maharal, in Be’er Hagolah, explains that only by Beis Shammai and Beis Hillel were they equally right. In other Machloksim one can be more right. However, they are both true ways of looking at something and are both Toras Emes.
Sam, that is a Gemara in Kedushin, if I’m not mistaken. I’ll post it when I get the Daf.
Rb Mordechai Miller explained both things made him angry and combined together he decided to ‘divorce’ his pilegesh so they are both true
Eliyahu
answered that Eilu Va’eilu, first this
happened and he overlooked it, then
the second thing happend and he lost
it.
was meant to imply that
both
things made him angry and combined
together he decided to ‘divorce’ his
pilegesh so they are both true
That is actually the basic Pshat in the Gemara. In a deeper look, there is a Machlokes and Svaros Hamachlokes, and the metzius was just like the Machlokes. There are two angles to approach the cause. There was disgust and danger of harm. Each was an important element.
In fact, it’s not simply a Machlokes of which one, that the true answer is, both. The actual story has two ways of looking at it. Was it mainly the aspect of disgust that allowed him to agry over anything, or, although he was disgusted he actually got angry over the danger of harm. The Machlokes remains, which element is really the cause, while the other is insignificant.
Sam, that is a Gemara in Kedushin if I’m not mistaken.
And mistaken I was. It is in Yevamos 32b and the Gilyon Hashas points to something similar in Shvuos 26.
I’m not sure Eilu Va’eilu should apply to what they think they heard. The idea of Eilu Va’eilu is not about never being wrong. It is about Torah Lishma being true. It’s about being Mechaven El Ha’emes. The Gemara in Bava Basra calls it a Nevua.
There is another point to be made. Torah Shebaal Peh is not just detective work, trying to guess what Hashem wanted. When the Chachamim learn a certain way, that becomes the Ratzon Hashem. That is why Hashem quotes them.
Hashem gave the Torah as would be interpreted by the Chachamim. Even if they argue about Keilim of the Mikdash, and the Keili was only built like the Shita of one of them, that just means that we didn’t Pasken like that. It doesn’t take away from the validity of the Shita.
In the case of Esther’s Kavana, in Megilla, and Pilegesh begiv’a, in Gittin, since they were Me’ayin and learned Lishma, they were Machaven to the Truth. Therefore, it had to be in the fact.
In other words, in a Halachic Machlokes about something in the past you don’t have to find a way that both happened, since it is no different than a Machlokes about Psak of the present and future. But, a Machlokes about a story, especially when it is based on learning a Pasuk, the event is Sovel both Shitos.
From a Kutres called ??? ????
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??????? ??? ???????, ?????? ????? ?????? ???????? ?? ?? ????? ???????:
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??????? ???????? ???, ?????? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????, ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???????. ?????? ????? ?? ???????, ????? ????? ?????? ?: –
???? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????, ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ???? ?????? ????? ??????, ???? ?????? ????? ???????. ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???, ???? ?-? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???, ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ????, ?? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??????, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??????, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???????.
??? ????? ?? ???? ?????; ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????, ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???????. ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??, ??? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ????, ????? ????? ???, ???? ?-? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????. ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????.
??????? ???? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???, ?? ???? ????? ?? ????. ?? ??????, ??????? ????????, ??????? ?????????, ??????? ????????, ???-???? ????-???, ??? ???? ????? ????, ?-? ??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????.
???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????????, ?? ?? ?? ????? ????; ?????? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????, ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??????; ??? ??????. ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? – ‘?-? ??? ????’. ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????; ???? ????? ??? ???. ??? ??????? ?? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ???.
I don’t think you can understand this inyan with a “hagashah mussari”. This relates to a sog from Rav Hutner, ‘The darshanim said mihr dahr arein legen in die pessukim’, the baalei mussar said, ‘Mihr darf nicht arein leigin, nur mihr darf arus nehmen fun die pessukim.’ Rav Hutner said, it comes out, diese legen arein und diese nemmen arois ober keiner sogt peshat nischt!
(shaygetz – apologies for my german yiddish)
The kevius ha’halacha has got nothing to do with a “ramah nisgavah” of adinus hamidos.
My oh my. What language is that? Who wrote that and what is his native language?
It’s fairly typical of post-war Israeli mussar (non-yeshivish yeshivish) style
I agree with HaLeivi,
I was actually going to quote that gemara
Chazal never argue over metzius.
Englishman: Machlokes Chachamim and R’ Yochanan Ben Nuri about rice.
Sam2,
See ??”? ?????? ?”?. ??”? ?? ??”?.
Treifa Chaya, Treifa Eina Chaya. Is that not a Machlokes about a Metzius?
The kind of Metzius they can’t argue about is the kind that they could easily check out. Instead of arguing they would simply check it out.
DY: I think I was thinking of the Gemara in Shavuos, but that Rashi works too. Thanks.
Treifa Chaya, Treifa Eina Chaya. Is that not a Machlokes about a Metzius?
Not necessarily – the machlokes could be what threshold of probability would be considered “chaya” or “eina chaya”.
Chazal never argue over metzius.
Oh, please. You tried that argument two years ago over here:
We clearly showed you there that Chazal *do* argue over metzius.
The Wolf
Not necessarily – the machlokes could be what threshold of probability would be considered “chaya” or “eina chaya”.
That, too, is a machlokes in metzius.
The Wolf
Here’s a somewhat insightful story:
The Ohalei Yosef, Reb Eliyahu Yosef Rivlin, became severely ill. The doctors couldn’t find a cure and eventually gave up and said there isn’t much time and his life is in danger. His sickness was such that in the Shulchan Aruch the Beis Yosef and the Rama argue about it if it happened to an animal. The Beis Yosef is Machshir and the Rama is Matrif.
Reb Eliyahu Yosef said: I’ve found for myself a Takana. I’ll travel to Eretz Yisroel where the Beis Yosef is the “Mara Diasra” and there the Halacha will be like him.
He set out at once for Eretz Yisroel where he lived for twenty years more.
-Sippurei Tzadikim
Wolf,
Maybe I wasn’t sufficiently clear, so I’ll restate:
Not necessarily – the machlokes could be what threshold of probability of death would *halachically* be considered “chaya” or “eina chaya”.
Not necessarily – the machlokes could be what threshold of probability of death would *halachically* be considered “chaya” or “eina chaya”.
Yes, but those determinations were based on actual observations, no?
Or are you saying that they would see 99 out of 100 cows live and yet proclaim halachically “aina chaya*?”
The Wolf
* Yes, I realize that that could be the situation today, but I have to believe that when the determinations were originally made, they were made based on whether they felt there was a significant probability that the animal would die.
What about the Machlokes about how long it takes for Yetziras Havlad. They tried bringing proof from incidents but they were discredited.
I had a Pshat for that one too, but I’m not so sure you need one. Where does this rule come from that they cannot argue about a Metzius? True, they can’t be arguing on a Metzius that they could have easily checked out.
The Pshat you gave implies a very general Machlokes. I’m not so sure you really want to take it there.
HaLeiVi: I think R’ Schachter once quoted a Ramban (possibly by the Gemara in Chulin of Treifa Chaya or not) that says they never argue in Metzius.
Wolf,
No, not based on actual observation, because they generally only saw the defect after the animal died.
Obviously, if a high percentage of animals which had a visible halchic defect lived more than a year, that would make the position of “treifa eina chaya” untenable. Since you likely agree that Chaza”l weren’t simpletons (although we might disagree about their infallibility in matters of metzius), I think we can assume that this is not what occurred.
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