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This is the greatest security for us.
Absolutely. We can discuss mandatory fulltime multi-year military service for Chareidim after we implement mandatory fulltime multi-year Torah study for Chilonim.
Until then there is nothing to negotiate about or discuss. Torah Jews are not enlisting.
When the guys I went to yeshiva with know tanach as well as the secular sochnut fellow on my college campus I will stop sniggering at that comment. Though you’re right, every Jew in Israel should learn more Torah.
If the secular sochnut apikorus had 1/100th the yiras shamayim as your yeshiva friends, he wouldn’t be an apikorus.
ItcheSrulik: Are you aware that many Chareidim dont learn much [ta]nach because the original maskilim and reformers put a dagesh on it in order to trick and ensnare chareidim with their original twisted logic?….
So you’re right, we are’nt interested in looking like [being like] your secular sochnut fellow.
BTW did he study it as a “history subject” similar to learning any other subject or in order to learn Hashems torah?
The Chazon Ish pronounced that if drafting women was included, that we should resist even if it meant death:
?????? ??????? ??? ? ???? ? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????
?????? ????? ??? ????, ????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???????, ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???, ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??????, ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???????, ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????. ????? ???? ?? ????? ?”?????? ??????” (?”? ???? ??”? ???”?) ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??”? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????. ????? ?? ????? ???”? ??? ????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????????? ??”?, ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????, ???? ??? ???? ?????????, ????? ??? ???? ????”? ???????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????, ??????? ???? ????? ??????
They left no doubt as to the cause for their opposition – the army in Israel is a place where moral standards are relaxed, to say the least, and it was just not the proper environment for a Jewish daughter. Against their will, the girls would be affected by the atmosphere and the environment to which they would be exposed, a milieu which would replace the positive reinforcement they would have gotten at home from parents and family.
Rabbis Isser Zalman Meltzer and Tzvi Pesach Frank also issued pronouncements that a person must choose death rather than accede to the government decree, as did the Steipler Rav and Rav Shach. When another rabbi suggested that perhaps it would not be so terrible if the girls served under carefully supervised conditions, the Chazon Ish retorted that the rabbi’s opinion was totally worthless and, had he had any children, he would not have been able to say something like that The Chazon Ish actually ruled that the Sabbath should be desecrated to avoid compliance with a draft order and urged parents and teachers to inculcate young women with the laws of dying “al kiddush Hashem;’ in sanctification of the Name.
ItcheSrulik: I know secular Israelis who celebrate Chanukah of “the brave hero maccabees” but they [nebach] know nothing what the battle was all about…
So “knowing” Tanach in itself means absolutely nothing….
Csar: ??? You do realize that the T’shuvah you quoted had no relevance whatsoever to your point, right?
So if chilonim started learning Gemorah Chareidim would have to stop?
zichmich: I am aware of that. I am also aware of valid reasons why ashkenazim do not have tanakh as the primary limmud for adults (there’s a Rashi in Horiyos about it). You are telling me that your chevreh don’t learn tanakh because other Jews do. In other words, you will gladly drop what is supposed to be the holy book of your religion in exchange for a shtickle shtoltz. Some Judaism.
Best of all are those that do both Torah and military service. For example, all of my male relatives.
In fact, there is often enough down time, that one nephew manages to make a siyum everytime he finishes miluim.
DD +1.
The products of the Hesder programs are some of the finest bnei Torah and Talmidei Chachomim among the Jewish people. I’ve worked with them, been taught by them, watched them learn and teach both in Israel and abroad. Many of them work as Shlichim far from home and family, teaching in yeshivas and community schools, having a torah hashpo’oh on entire communities. Their lives are steeped in Torah values, they are not materialistic, and they are devoted to am Yisroel. The large majority of hesderniks serve in combat units. They are serious about their devotion to Torah and to am Yisroel and eretz Yisroel. Most of them that I know use every opportunity they have to learn Torah. These are also the backbone of the IDF combat officer corps. It is a good model, and I fail to understand how these responsibilities can not be combined as successfully for the chareidim as the Hesder yeshivos have done.
dd: That would obviously be the ideal, where everyone contributes both b’ruchni uv’gashmi. Just curious though; what does your nephew do on miluim that he has that much time to learn, or do you mean he makes a siyum on what he learns on miluim over a year?
DD / yichusdik; Thank you both. Outside Israel the merits of the Hesder programme are played down, in today’s IDF these amazing young men serve with astonishing zeal and spiritual feeling.
Its too bad that so many going into the Army as Daati come out as Chiloni.
Shloemi. Source please for your claim
It’s easy to say the Chareidim would leave if crafted but where would they go? And how would they pay for it?
I loved csar’s post. Reminded me of the meshulach (tzedakah collector, if you prefer) who walked around with a sad story flashing a very official looking letter signed by a well-known posek. I could see he was a little uncomfortable when i asked to have a look, but he couldn’t refuse. It was a hazmana to din Torah!
Poor guy. Dinei Torah cost money.
The Chazon Ish and Gedolei Yisroel were adamantly and fiercely opposed to the draft.
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