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Suppose the powers that be were able to get rid of the internet in totality. Meaning no world wide web in any way shape or form. (For those who need it for parnassa, another same profitable option would be offered for same exact income) Would you be happy? Relieved? Anxious? Upset? Lost? Other?
You wouldn’t need to get rid of the internet to get rid of the World Wide Web. That would be like getting rid of electricity because you don’t want television.
Beyond thrilled, grateful and very relieved.
The question is so theoretical that it cannot be really answered.
Would you be thrilled if the Telephone, Printing Press , Electricity and Internal Combustian Engine (Car ,Train , Plane) would also be able to get rid of.
The fact of the matter is the Engine has done more damage to Klal Yisroel than any other invention
Zahavasdad: I think you yourself know it is a poor comparison and far from true. And seperately, if you dont feel the way I do (and Im NOT a bandwagon jumper) it is solely because you dont know what I know, so count your blessings in a big way. (if youll excuse me, my cow and I have another soapbox to attend to)
Just answer the question
Which invention did more damage to Yiddish Neshamas
The Train or the Internet
Thrilled. In fact, once a week, (sometimes as many as 3)I’m already living an off-line life.
As do all of us. Its called Shabbos.
I answered you. The internet. And as I said before, if you dont see that yourself its only cuz you may not have all the facts. And its not necessary to be so curt just because I offered an opposing view.
Nevertheless, I don’t agree with your analogy. If someone sees something on tv, they will tell you I saw it on tv, not I saw it on my electricity. But if you see something through the www, you will say you saw it on the internet.
In other words, because most people use the wrong terminology, the internet should be punished. Interesting.
If the internet is gone can we get a real coffee room with real people? (you can still have your screenname on your shirt pocket if you want)
Sure but as soon as I see what most of you look like I probably wont want to talk to you anymore
Computer: You missed her point, apparently.
Sheesh, don’t flaunt your ignorance.
I do think life would be manageable, or even improved without consumer-based Web services. Removing the Internet alters the paradigm too much for your hypothesizing, though. Do you even know what you are talking about?
One more thing – if we didn’t the spiritual challenges we have today, we would have different ones. Wishing and shutting them away doesn’t do anything. You have to learn how to overcome them. That’s what this asifa is for, isn’t it? Just saying.
Syag Lchochma: This is because of looks or because maybe some of us will be wearing kippot srugot or streimlach or denim skirts or turbans or whatever it is that’s different from what you’re wearing?
That’s a good thing about the internet, then—- anonymity, so we’re not beating each other up when someone different from us is stating their opinion.
Yes, I was joking and that was what I meant. But the beating up is pretty bad here when people disagree. I think the anonimity stops people from beating each other up when they DONT disagree.
Syag: You’re right(which I thought was what I said) and it allows people the chance to disagree in the first place, in an environment where they can open their mouths (or press their keys) without people seeing their kippot of tichlech or whatever, and where they can also keep an ear out for the bus or their oven timer :).
Throughout history every technological advance has created spiritual opportunities and challenges. Even the shoes we wear.
Periods in time where technological advance ground to a halt such as during the “dark age” (1500 to 500 years ago), have not been the best of times for us as Jews.
Abraham and Issac got into disputes with the Philistines because of the Philistines’ objection to Abraham’s technological advance of water wells.
OOM – and yet we daven not to have nisyonos. The topic is a bit more complicated than that.
If this would happen I’d be so grateful I’d dance all day..
Hmm…I don’t think that contradicts what I said. My point is that they need to be proactively dealt with. Davening that we should not be lead to nisyonos does not mean that once they are upon us, we should spin fantasies instead of dealing with them.
The reality is that we’ve always has nisyonos, tefilos notwithstanding. Perhaps these tefilos are being used to save us from harsher nisyonos. I don’t think it’s fruitful to dwell on such ideas.
The topic is stupid. Snap back to reality and deal with the life we have.
By the way. Hockaroundtheclock is not hockoftherock
the very fact that this convo is taking place on the internet makes this whole thing completly hypocritical.
Thanks Yoomis, I was starting to feel very soiled, good to be disassociated from that unoriginal clown.
I mean Yamoos you see how easy it is to mix up screennames…
By “internet” do you mean anything using the various internet protocols, which really is a problem since the internet is simply the system using the telecommunication system. By that definition, “internet” includes telephone, the entire banking system, all credit cards, and virtually all sources for hearing news. Not using the internet means living with an 18th century level of technology.
If by internet you are referring to “graphic browsers” one could exist without them, using PINE mail, LYNX and not much more. You would probably lack access to the banking system and telephonic communications.
If you say the objection is to certain websites, there is no hiddush. As older people may remember, it is prohibited to look at undressed people acting improperly even if it is offline. Obscene literature was probably invented about the same time as writing – it isn’t a function of the internet.
Yeah, let’s all be delusional, that’s the adult way of dealing with life.
What’s the internet?
OOM – My hypothesis was that perhaps part of dealing with a nisayon IS to try to get out of it.
(Not contradicting the obvious fact that to the extent that its here it needs to be dealt with.)
R’yisrael Salanter discusses at length that Yiras Shamayim requires one to avoid the situation which is a nisayon for him, not to rely on attempting to deal with the situation from within. [Yes, clearly once it comes….]
I think learning how to properly deal with an issue is usually better than avoiding an issue.
Okay, that makes sense.
MP- Yes, I would imagine you would say that.
R’ Yisrael seems to have a different view – its better, makes you stronger, etc – but if possible avoid.
One of the main points is to bear in mind that we have a tendency to hugely overestimate our ability to deal with adverse situations. And we also know that one cannot compare their ability to deal with one nisayon to any other. And we know that one cannot be confident because they have succesfully dealt with a nisayon in the past that they will do so again under slightly different circumstances.
Then again, i guess I shouldn’t try to say “kol toras mussar al regel achas”. Many of us don’t admit to these ideas. They seem to give too negative a view of ourselves for us to readily admit to them.
I think the world would be lost.
The internet is a mirror of the world, but up close in your face.
Online one can learn things more easily, donate to tzedaka more easily, find out information and attend important events, shiurim..etc.
Online one can also more easily, chas veshalom, stumble into terrible things.
That being said, the internet is a more personal and convenient way to come across the same things you can find on Main Street, Wall Street, Easy Street, etc…..
It is more demanding on us to use our discretion, but not so different from the challenges in the world at large.
Logician, yep. I wouldn’t really like to turn this thread into one of our slightly off-topic discussions, though they are definitely enjoyable. But I’ll just say this:
I very much agree that having a non-realistic over-estimation of our abilities isn’t practical. But at the same time, it is a fact that a positive attitude is many times all that it takes to get through a nisayon, and is, at other times, the “x-factor”. So, for a person to lack the confidence to get through a nisayon, which, as you’ve said, can cause enough negativity that one is unable to even admit it, that itself can, and usually does, cause one to falter and stumble. So being too “realistic” can even BE the cause of not getting through a nisayon. Bottom line: I say it’s better to always have the confidence to make it through.
MP – This is one of the hardest aspects of mussar – managing not to have all the “self-bashing” affect you emotionally. Its really a fascinating topic – as I’ve learnt from Alei Shur, of course.
Logician: I think you are talking from the perspective of the individual. It’s definitely good if a person is able to remove themselves completely from the temptations of the Web. But looking at the big picture – it is completely unrealistic to assume that this solution is implementable by everyone, even if it hypothetically should be. The problem will exist on some level in any scenario. And I really think the problem is everyone’s individual problem, because if those around you have trouble managing it, it will probably effect you too.
OOM – I completely agree. But that’s not the way the argument is usually formulated. I usually hear how life is meant to be dealt with, don’t run away etc. That’s what I was addressing – the need to run away if feasible, and not be overconfident.
Your last point is very interesting, I would want to think about its ramifications before responding.
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