Davening Gemara

nope. it would take a super-genius to even be remotely shayach to understand the steps of a gemara at that speed, and he was no genius. And those who truly know a mesechta that well are very deliberate in their learning and don’t substitute it for a sidur. Someone who learns 10 blatt a day with the possible exception of R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlita don’t have any understanding of what they “learned”.

“i can learn around that speed when chazaring a mesechta i know well.”

Not true. The best you can do is think through the superficial steps and conclusions. Understanding with any meaningful depth for us who aren’t top 5 Torah geniuses of the generation requires that one spend time to actually think through each step and focus on it even to remember it in a way that actually counts for learning bec simply having a memory of something in the back of yoour mind does not count even for chazarah. You are fakingg yourself out if you think otherwise.

“instead of focusing on him not learning maybe learn a bit yourself.”

I spent maybe a minute or two watching him plow through a few page turns when i paused to take a little break.

“and maybe he was just trying to locate a specific gemara”

And maybe he was really an isreali spy posing

“Mochoh – Are you seriously taainaing that there is no inherent kedusha in the words of the gemorah?!?! Why would you not need to make the Brochos in the morning before “laining” the gemora if you need a Brocho before laining the mishna?”

Here’s what i did say: “There is no inherent kedusha in words of gemara that saying them in and of itself is some form of mitzvah or zechus“. Not that there is no kedusha at all, which is patently absurd. If you want to imbibe kedusha by reading words, read pesukim or Zohar.

“Why Zohar and Mishna yes inherent kedusha, but Gemorah no inherent kedusha?”

The Torah is the Holiest entity; Scriptures succeeding it – Nach – are somewhat less holy; Mishna and Zohar are the cutoff line for enough kedusha to make it possible to imbibe from it just by reading the words. Further, acc to you how far does this go? Is reading a pnei yehoshua also considered absorbing kedusha from his words?

Says who? Who decided that is the cutoff line?

Look it up in the MA & SAH

“MT: That’s explicitly wrong. The Poskim say that you put a Gemara on top of a Nach.”

Which poskim are you quoting exactly? nach should not be under a gemara, however there are those who are <i>mekel</i> in certain situations. (Halachically Speaking brings down a whole bunch of maare mekomos)

“I too frequently turn g’mara pages very quickly when chazaring and using an Artscroll which only focuses on several lines of g’mara per page. Havei dan l’caf z’chus…”

1- it wasn’t an artscroll; 2- i was watching himas he progressed down the page, which i knew from his finger moving across every line downward top to bottom and the amount of words being said in between each page turn from blatt to blatt.

“Of all that was said in this thread, I think the above wins the prize for most ignorant statement. Not to mention that it’s nusach sefard.”

That is in no way literal. i thoght it was self-understood that one cannot bring a rayah on his own from the wording of a tefillah much less something like this which isn’t even anywhere near sound and airtight. The point was to make a point of that we ask for understanding and knowledge in Torah explicitly and not to be inspired by the mystical essence of the words as far as i know. If someone knows of an explicit tefillah for such i would be glad to know.

“Sam2: I am almost sure that most poskim argue on the Aruch Hashulchan YD 283:6.”

Judaism is not particular to un-orthodox feminist manifetsos

“Gosh it’s funny who you sometimes post a non humorous comment together with a “humorous” one. In the same post.

Gosh. “we guys” just don’t get it.”

Certain things are self-evident that they are simply too absurd to possibly be true bec they are fundementally illogical

Hi RT:

Hi mochoh timcheh:

Salutations to you as well!

Having just arrived back from Pesach vacation, I saw this post and to put it mildly, I was severely disappointed that such a thread should exist.

Again, I quote the Chofetz Chaim of Sainted Memory: One who can learn on a better level qualitatavely and does not is over on bitul Torah. Therefore, i was inspired to write about what i percieved to be a complete lack of learning by someone who by all appearances, and certainly by his fluency and ease with the words of the gemara, looked to have the aility to actually learn with his mind and not merely his mouth. That in theory such a person should exist is not contrary to any known or unknown principle in Torah hashkafa.

First of all, may I humbly suggest that you pay attention to your own learning (& davening) and not be so intrusive of other’s derachim.

My point ws that it’s not learning mikol vakol, this being what i found offensive; there is no such valid “derech” in learning that involves not learning. I have nothing against any other derech in learning; aderabah, in vilna during the infancy of WWII when R Chaim Ozer ZT”L gathered many of the Eurpean yeshivos to Vilna, he kept them seperate bec a derech in learning is as much a chelek of Torah as the gemara itself and would therefore be a tremendous tragedy for a derech to be lost.

Secondly, reading and chanting ANY sefer is quite legitimate in and of itself.

There is no aveirah, true. But it is fooling yourself to think that that counts as Talmud Torah. (Tos says the two parts of the mitzvah is 1- yediah & 2- ameilus. ameilus is lacking obviously where you don’t really think; knowing a half baked idea in its utmost superficiality is not considered “knowing” exactly either.)

My father, shlit”a (& he should be gezunt bis 120 yahrs mit simcha) memorized a number of sugyas in Shas, so that when a shayla was presented to him, he could quote the mekor in those Gemaras instantly.

No one i know can memorize anything that fast, certainly not in such vast quantities.

True, we have a mesora specifically for Tanach, Mishnayos (Maggid Mishnah) and Zohar/Tikkunei Zohar, but as mentioned earlier, ANY sefer is pleasing to HaShem.

Again, i refer to the Chofetz Chaim i quoted earlier. (Besides, it is simply logical that if you have the choice of two mitzvos, the more pleasing one to HASHEM is greater, all else being equal, meaning just mitzad the kiyuis aspect itself.)

I am quite certain that there were critics and pessimists who offered the same response (as you did) when Daf Yomi was in its infancy back in the 1920’s — see how it has blossomed today and caught on to include Yerushalmi, Tosefta, etc…

While there were/are Gedolim who held that for a bachur in yeshiva, daf yomi would be detrimental (!), no one said it is like davening gemara at all.

Again, at this time of Sefirat HaOmer when the talmidim of Rebbi Akiva perished because they were “lo nohagu kavod zeh lazeh”, it behooves us to be a little bit more respectful of everyone, no matter what madgreiga they are in life, no matter what derachim they choose, no matter what minhaghim they practice.

I in no way am attacking the person. I do not pretend to know his life, personality, nisyonos, etc. I was merely pointing out that it’s a chaval that such a thing exists in the world, much as it is a chaval that there are tinokos shenishbos in the world, though i hardly think that we hold it against them.