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I have been davening from my kindle using a pdf copy a siddur I downloaded from hebrewbooks and wanted to share with the olam some observations about my experience and thoughts on if this is advisable.
Reasons against using electronic siddur.
1. There is an element of kedusha a siddur has which an electronic device cannot replicate.
Using a davar kadosh can impact the tefiloh itself.
For example, suppose you had the siddur your grandmother cried tears on all the years she was alive.
Don’t you think davening from such a siddur is better than an electronic device?
I think so. Even if you don’t have such a siddur but holding a siddur which has been prayed from for years by hundreds of yidden is also something.
2. When I am in front of the RBS”O, I should come before Him as an eved, as a nitzrach, as someone in need. Holding an expensive device is not in the spirit of how one should supplicate themselves while davening.
It’s kind of like, I look cool davening like this.
Even if you don’t think so, it has that appearance.
3. The device is also used to play games. So you are using a device used for hollelus and kalus rosh to daven from.
On Yom Kippur, we are concerned not to use gold when the kohain gadol goes lifani v’lifnim because ain kateigor naaseh saneigor, perhaps the same device to play games should not be used for davening for the same reason.
4. When going from one location to another, you need to page thru the siddur. This is a slow process and ultimately wastes time.
Bookmarking cetain sections helps but there is always something you need and it is a pain to find it.
This is the problem with any electronic device.
The waste of time they generate is unreal.
Reasons for using electronic siddur.
1. Silent turning of pages.
You make virtually no noise at all.
2. Makes davening fun.
3. Keeps you focused on the davening since you are constantly interacting with it to keep pace.
Just throwing out some thoughts.
I’d love to hear from you.
Shloime
<troll>The Gedolim have Assered such devices. Any tefila will C”V go to the Koach of the SA, C”V!!!!
BURNING YOUR DEVICE RIGHT AWAY IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN REVERSE THE DAMAGE!!!!!!! </troll>
For example, suppose you had the siddur your grandmother cried tears on all the years she was alive.
Don’t you think davening from such a siddur is better than an electronic device?
It’s probably also better than using a new siddur too. So, what’s the point? The only reason that the siddur (in your case) is special, is because it has sentimental value *to you*. I have no attachment to the siddur your grandmother used.
However, based on your argument, I should only daven from sidduring in which I have an emotional attachment and not any old siddur “off the shelf.”
In fact, the siddur I use was one I bought new in my teens. I still use it today because about 17 years ago, my son got a hold of it and scribbled on some of the pages. Now, whenever I use it, I have a very visible reminder of what I need to daven for. However, according to your theory, I should not have this because when I bought the siddur it was new and did not have the emotional attachment equating to one that my grandmother cried in.
Holding an expensive device is not in the spirit of how one should supplicate themselves while davening.
It’s kind of like, I look cool davening like this.
Back in the days when siddurim were only available as handwritten manuscripts, I suppose the same could have been said then.
The device is also used to play games. So you are using a device used for hollelus and kalus rosh to daven from
And suppose you don’t use it for games?
The Wolf (who is *sure* that someone’s going to tell him that he’s disrespecting HKBH by using a siddur with a child’s scribbles in it.)
There is also the issue of maaras ayin.
Although many people do know that one can download tefilos on these devices and daven from them, people are MORE likely to think that you are playing games or doing some work related task rather than davening.
L’fi aniyas da’ati, at least for the next few years, davening should be done from a siddur if at all possible.
So if you stop using your Kindle for games,and learn how to use it better (taking care of 3 and 4), then you pass it on to your grandchildren (assuming it doesn’t have collectible value – taking care of 1 and 2) it would be fine , right?
YOu bring up some very good points in your post.
However I would like to know why on earth you would put your real name here on an Anonymous forum…
If you are trying to re-connect with someone you think you might know, keep in mind that people should be weary of impersonation. You could be impersonating someone in order to find out who a particular poster is.. I am not saying you are I am just bringing it up for the naive ones out there that might not nes understand the dangers… -All I am saying is CAUTION!!
oh and also congratulations on your first post!! 4 years with a username and no posting, how could you have resisted that??!!;)
Unless your another mod username..LOL;)
I didn’t think I’d agree with your reasons against, but I’m actually finding them strangely compelling. Not bad.
Big fan of it, gets the job done. Although i prefer a siddur, using my Blackberry has saved me probably hundreds of times.
I think the most prevalent use is in situations when you don’t have a siddur – for example, at a simcha.
Davening should be interesting, maybe exciting. Fun ?
As far as i remember, theres a mifurash’ halachah stating that it is asur to daven while holding an expensive item, because kavana will be difficult as a person will be mashgiach on it. why would this be different?
Toi: The Halachah is that you can’t hold anything in your hands that you’re worried about dropping, because it will take away from your Kavanah. However, it’s Muttar for a D’var Mitzvah, therefore one may hold their Lulav and Esrog while Davening. If you’re using your electronic device as a Siddur, that should count as a D’var Mitzvah.
WolfishMusings,
The only reason that the siddur (in your case) is special, is because it has sentimental value *to you*.
Actually, the OP made no mention of emotional attachment. He provided two examples of why he thought a siddur was a “davar kedusha.” The first example implied an emotional connection. The second (using a shul siddur that others have prayed in) did not. I don’t think he intended his two examples to be exclusive to others as to why a siddur is a “davar kedusha.”
However, based on your argument, I should only daven from sidduring in which I have an emotional attachment and not any old siddur “off the shelf.”
Can you really show that from the OP? Seems like you are drawing inferences from the OP based on projections of your own bias. Especially since the siddur “off the shelf” was his second example.
In fact, the siddur I use was one I bought new in my teens. I still use it today because about 17 years ago, my son got a hold of it and scribbled on some of the pages. Now, whenever I use it, I have a very visible reminder of what I need to daven for.
Very nice.
However, according to your theory, I should not have this because when I bought the siddur it was new and did not have the emotional attachment equating to one that my grandmother cried in.
Again, creating an argument based on a theory that didn’t exist in the OP.
The Wolf (who is *sure* that someone’s going to tell him that he’s disrespecting HKBH by using a siddur with a child’s scribbles in it.)
Unwarranted assumption from bias. What makes you so sure?
Its not a mitzva to hold it. The cheftza isnt a chaftza shel mitzva, and you dont need to hold it to be mikayim your mitzva.
If a person’s kavana is increased by davening from a grandparent’s siddur than that is better. However, the main thing is to see the letters (this is discussed in Nefesh HaChaim). One large advantage of the i-phone application is that special tefillot, such as “yaaleh veyavo” pop up on the proper days so one cannot forget unless he is on automatic pilot, in which case nothing will help.
zdad-your more afraid to drop it. your post is, once again, disappointing.
Toi: Neither is a Siddur. It’s perfectly fine to hold one of those, isn’t it?
sam2- yay. your not afraid to drop a sidur. if it falls it wont smash into itty bitty pieces and have you going to best buy or searching online for a new one. why do you nitpick when youre maskim?
i cant be bothered to carry a megillah tonight, so i downloaded a megillah app from which i will follow along during the kriah.
But you can be bothered to carry your kindle.
Toi: I’m not at all Maskim. I think you’re misapplying this Halachah.
“But you can be bothered to carry your kindle.”
android phone
My husband has problems seeing the small print in the siddurim. He can make the print on his electronic device as big as he wants.
How did your husband survive prior to the advent of electronic siddurs?
How did your husband survive prior to the advent of electronic siddurs?
How did people daven before the advent of printed books and everything had to be hand written
People with poor eyesight used to use an magnifier on top of a book or sefer. I don’t know if it was electronic or not, but I’ve also seen older people holding magnifying glasses.
A siddur is a kodosh thing, we don’t drop it on the floor. We kiss it when we close it, put it right side up, and don’t put other objects (Non seforim) on top of it.
I may be from a different generation, but I can’t see davening from an electronic device. A Tallis, a sefer Torah, a sefer they are kodosh. If this device was only for Kedusah, I think it could be counted as the above objects. (Just like a klaf became a printed book.) But the device is not only for kedusha so what does that make it? I once asked about tapes – if they need to be buried, and I was told they have no kedusha whatsoever, you can just throw them out. So how can you compare a kindle to a siddur? Where’s your Jewish heart?
I once asked about tapes – if they need to be buried, and I was told they have no kedusha whatsoever, you can just throw them out.
But yet, you (presumably) have no objections to people listening to shiurim on them, despite their inherent lack of kedusha, no?
So, why should an electronic siddur be different?
The Wolf
Kollel_wife: The words in them make them Kodosh. A prominent Rosh Yeshivah once implied to me (though he wouldn’t say it outright) that since I write Divrei Torah on my cell phone I shouldn’t take my cell phone into a bathroom, even though there’s no actual Issur.
Sam: On that basis you shouldn’t be talking divrei chol on your cellphone either, just as you wouldn’t be scribbling mathematical calculations in your siddur.
All this talk about how the words are somehow holier if they’re in a printed book than if they’re digital seems a little silly to me, sorry. I have to admit though, I prefer printed books- nothing like feeling the pages between your fingers. That goes for siddurim, but also for secular books- I don’t really like reading anything off an e-reader, I just like books better.
My husband does not like davening from his Droid because he is easily distracted. He does still have the app though because it can come in handy in situations where he needs to daven but has no access to a siddur for whatever reason.
Anyway, it’s not like we have to worry about printed siddurim going extinct or anything. As long as we Jews are keeping Shabbos, we will have a need for printed seforim 🙂
i have a siddur app on my ipod touch. it has saved a few times when i forget to bring a siddur. i’ve used it for bentching, tefillas haderech. i’ve used tehillim app for my daily tehillim if i find myself w/ a few minutes here or there. i also have igeres haramban saved on my ipod as a pdf and have used it too.
have i davened off my ipod? yes. did i feel like i was davening? no. i felt odd davening off a device i use for school and entertainment.
Just because you are not used to using am iPad for davening doesnt mean its any differnt.
When printed siddurs first came out I am sure most people had to get used to them, I am sure most had hardly ever even seen a Book.
It will take a few years, but people will get used to e-books and people will see how much better it can be.
Artscroll is making a Shas for iPads and other seforim will follow.
I have two questions regarding davening from a smartphone:
1) are you davening for the phone or to the phone?
2) if it drops do you need to kiss it?
I had a rather interesting incident. A little while ago, the power lines went down just before minyan due to a bad storm. Most of us had to use our phones to daven. There were only a few flashlights.
Don’t the phones have flashlights?
MDG: I guess I’ll have to excuse you. I hope Hashem did too.
I would have been the top candidate to write how I would not daven from an electronic device.
Except that I got stuck once and was so happy to realize that I could find exactly what I needed to say on my little electronic device, in clear legible print.
2) if it drops do you need to kiss it?
For what it’s worth, I’m pretty sure I saw someone post that you don’t,
unless the device is used exclusively for davening.
“Don’t the phones have flashlights? “
It’s hard to daven holding a siddur in one hand and flashlight in another. Those that used flashlights had shtenders or tables.
Besides, the flashlight uses a lot of battery power, and we had no idea when power would be restored.
“Besides, the flashlight uses a lot of battery power, and we had no idea when power would be restored.”
How long does the minyan take to daven?
Call me old fashioned, I have a siddur bang in middle of the NY Post and I daven out of that. People think I am reading the Post while davening, but really I am simply davening just like everyone else.
I didn’t know phones have flashlights.
So imagine how startled I was when I accidentally (Don’t even think of asking how. You know I have no idea.) turned mine on.
My battery was almost gone by the time I figured out how to turn it off.
But this probably belongs on a different thread.
Unless we’re going to start davening for a return to simpler times when davening automatically meant siddur and flashlight meant, well, flashlight.
Isn’t the issue more how great that someone is davening, rather than the means by which he makes it easier to do so? As long as it’s not Shabbos, is it not raising the kedusha of something as mundane as a tablet, to that of being a vehicle with which to connect to Hashem? My remarks are offered notwithstanding piskei Halacha in this regard. If Gedolim have said no, it’s no.
Oomis: I don’t think davening form a phone is raising the kedusha of the phone. I think its lessening the kedusha of the davening.
“If Gedolim have said no, it’s no.”
Only if your own rav is one of the Gedolim. Otherwise CYLOR,
My own smartphone app has the great feature that it knows what parts to add and subtract from the liturgy on special days. It thus prevents errors in the tefillah.
Our biggest problem should be that people daven from their smartphones instead of from a real siddur.
Charlie, which app do you use?
Hashemisreading, respectfully, I disagree. If someone can daven from ANY source, it’s a good thing. And of course, we have to speak to our own Rov for guidance, but I would think that most learned rabbonim would not pasken differently from Gedolei hador, though.
Can one smash a smartphone if there is a siddur app on it?
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