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According to the secular calendar, is Sunday the first or the seventh day of the week? (I’ve seen different secular calendars displaying it both ways.)
In Xtianity it’s the first. In secular/business world it’s the seventh.
They say one of the open nissim in this world is that the goyim continue to have the (our?) original 7-day week structure. It only makes sense to make it an even amount of days. anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread.
Most calendars put Sunday first.
However, in truth, it doesn’t really matter from a strictly secular point of view. There are no laws, regulations or customs that refer to “the first day of the week” or “the seventh day of the week.” As such, l’mai nafka minah?
The Wolf
Most calendars that I’ve seen have Sunday at the beginning of the coming week, and since that’s the way the Jewish calender is also set up it’s probably best to think of it this way, you won’t get confused.
First day, but still called the “weekend.”
They say one of the open nissim in this world is that the goyim continue to have the (our?) original 7-day week structure.
In what way, exactly, is it an “open miracle?”
It only makes sense to make it an even amount of days.
Why is an even-number of days in the week the *only* thing that makes sense?
The Wolf
Yehudah Tzvi – where do you get that Xianity says Sunday is the first day of the week?
According to what I understand, we’re supposed to say “Yom Rishon LeShabbos” on Sunday, “Yom Sheini LeShabbos” on Monday, etc. That puts Sunday as the first day of the week on the JEWISH calendar.
I don’t know if I would call it miraculous, but no doubt some people would. Many civilizations have, had, or proposed a week of more or less than 7 days. Examples that come to mind are Stalin’s Russia (both 5 and 6 day weeks), and the Tang dynasty (10 day week). This would make life exceedingly complicated for Shabbos observers, so it is wonderful that this is not an issue.
Even most secular historians credit the seven day week to the Jews.
” Examples that come to mind are Stalin’s Russia (both 5 and 6 day weeks)”
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In Stalin’s Russia was 5 and then 6 BUSINESS DAYS week. But on calendar even in Stalin’s Russia were written the same 7 days – Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Only one week people worked Monday-Friday, next week Sunday-Thursday, next week Saturday-Wednesday and so on.
Kuzari (1,57) uses the widely accepted 7-day week to prove that we all have a common ancestor.
Logician: I don’t think that argument would have worked in the historical even the Kuzari was based on because relatively close to Khazar country, there were people who had a 9-day week.
The French Revolution attempted to create a 10-day week.
Itche, as long as it is clear that the 9 day adventists started it, the proof remains.
There is an astrological basis for the seven-day week, although it doesn’t seem to stem from astronomical facts.
Kuzari (1,57) uses the widely accepted 7-day week to prove that we all have a common ancestor.
A far better proof is our genetic similarity to one another.
Of course, however, the author of the Kuzari could be excused for not using it since he had no knowledge of genetics.
The Wolf
Kuzari (1,57) uses the widely accepted 7-day week to prove that we all have a common ancestor.
I’m wondering if this might be a bit of a Sharpshooter’s fallacy on the part of the Kuzari. After all, he (and later people who make similar claims) can only say this because the seven day week has, indeed, won out and become the standard. If the nine day week (just to pick an example) had one out, they would make a similar claim.
The Wolf
Wolf: The Kuzari doesn’t need you to find reason for him to “be excused”.
I only quote. He says that from China to the Western Islands, everyone agrees to a 7 day week. He also uses the universal counting by tens.
Wolf: The Kuzari doesn’t need you to find reason for him to “be excused”.
True, but my point, nonetheless, remains.
The Wolf
Wolf, his argument was that it is the same throughout the world, spanning countries with little or no contact.
And to point out a fallacy in your argument, just like years and months weren’t ‘ruled out’, there’s no reason for a weak to have been streamlined.
Wolf, his argument was that it is the same throughout the world, spanning countries with little or no contact.
Which, as other have shown, was false. There were several cultures with weeks of varying lengths.
And to point out a fallacy in your argument, just like years and months weren’t ‘ruled out’, there’s no reason for a weak to have been streamlined.
I’m not sure what you think my argument is. Unless I missed something, I only made two arguments in this thread:
1. That genetics is a much better proof of the common ancestry of all Mankind than any calendrical similarity.
2. That the widespread use of the seven day week is not, necessarily, a miracle.
The widespread use of the seven day calendar can easily be attributed to the spread of Christianity and Islam (both of whom inherited the concept of a seven day week from us). Christian missionaries and Islamic conquerors brought the concept of the seven-day week to much of the globe.
In addition, a week is a pretty good approximation of one quarter of a lunar month. If you wanted to break a lunar month up into manageable portions other than days (without resorting to fractions of days), seven is a logical choice.
The seven-day week could also be attributable to the seven planets of the ancient world — Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn.
In addition, the fact that other cultures, at one time, had other weeks (and later switched to the seven day week) is proof *against* a common inherited tradition — not for it. Were there a worldwide tradition from Creation, then all cultures would have had a seven day week and then possibly moved away from it — not started with a different number and then moved towards it.
The Wolf
Wolf – I didn’t write the complete quote. He is working with the assumption that there was no common agreement among the different civilizations.
Another point – preglobalization, why should any one system win out at all ?
Let’s hope that we don’t get “International Day” on December 31st, because then even with a 7 day week, Shabbos shifts 1 day in the week each year, and 2 days every 4th year {except thrice in 400 years}
Fortunately the christian church is keeping up this fight on our behalf.
Wolf, you are saying two things: One, that the premise is not true, and there were other week lengths that were held. And two, that even if the week were universal that would be because the prevalent one won out.
To your first point, which is not only yours, he probably was not aware of such a group. Even if he was aware, if it is a unique and small group then the argument remains, since it is obvious that they tried introducing something new.
As to your second point, the one I addressed earlier, you are making an assumption that one system has to rule out, and I showed you that it is not at all the case. We get along pretty fine with different calendars. Our countrymen don’t even have moon months, and other countries have their holidays showing up at all seasons of the year. Nothing has to rule out. In fact, before the globalization that we have there was less reason to have a uniform system. Second of all, his argment was that it is the same on all parts of the world, which rules out the idea that one conformed to another.
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