- This topic has 14 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I have seen some say that you make a mezonos on a hot pretzel while others say you even make an Hamotzi. I’m a bit confused. Can someone please clarify? Thank you!
I think that there are two competing principles in this case: 1) What is the make-up of the item 2) How is it used.
1) The dough used for a soft hot pretzel is usually a bread dough. Furthermore, being soft, it has the texture and taste as bread.
OTOH
2) People generally do not consider a soft pretzel as a food that one makes a meal with (kovai’a seudah)
I cannot pasken for you, but I follow what I saw in the Kaf HaChaim, where he says that the bracha for a pretzel (and bagel – and he spells them in Hebrew) is Hamotsi.
I believe Rav Schachter and Rav Sobolofsky both point out that if you make a Mezonos on 1 slice of pizza then you have to make Hamotzi on a soft pretzel. (Though their explanation was not quite Muchrach to me, I will admit.) If I recall correctly from when I looked into this, a pretzel is scalded in water like a bagel before baking, but pretzels are scalded for a bit longer. The question, in my opinion, will be if that scalding is long enough to make it Mezonos even if it is baked after.
“The question, in my opinion, will be if that scalding is long enough to make it Mezonos even if it is baked after. “
The Kaf HaChaim’s rule (which I beleive is on the Sh”A 168) is that the Bracha goes after the main way it’s cooked/baked. He says that bagels and pretzels are parboiled in order to make a particular outside crust, but the main way they are “cooked” is through baking. OTOH, if something is mainly boiled and then baked to change the outside a little, then that is Mezonot.
I have to admit that today we should look into how they are made. For example, many bagels today are not even boiled; they are steamed to get the crust. And I assume that soft pretzels are mainly baked because they have the form of bread inside them, besides being baked before serving.
The Aruch Hashulchan 168:24 it seems that pretzels should be mezonos(not sure just speculating) http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=7705&st=&pgnum=312&hilite=
I thought since its pas haba b’kisnin its hamotzee if you’re eating it for a meal
Are we sure it’s not “Baruch……zokef kefufim”???
asher yotzor before, hagomel afterward.
A soft pretzel is one of many examples of this question. It boils down to this:
There are 3 characteristics that cause a dough to be considered pas haba bikisnin, whose bracha is mezonos: crunchy (e.g. crackers), sweet (e.g. cake), or filled. If a dough does not have any of these characteristics, it is usually hamotzi. However, many poskim contend that even if the dough is not crunchy, sweet, or filled, it will still not be considered hamotzi if it doesn’t have turisa d’nahama i.e. the “form” of bread. Generally this means that if it is not used as a bread in that country, it may be considered mezonos even without those characteristics.
Some examples of questionable items that may fall into this category are pizza, tortillas (wraps), hot pretzels, bagels, etc… (Not all of the above have the same din. But they all are considered by SOME to not have the form of bread.)
In short, this is a question for your LOR. Mine (who is in the USA) holds that pizza is vadai hamotzi, as are bagels. He said that wraps are “very problematic” because it isn’t clear if they are considered bread in the US. (I believe that if one were living in Mexico, where tortillas are a standard form of bread, they would be vadai hamotzi.) And I believe that my posek holds that hot pretzels are mezonos.
Incidentally, R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach Zatzal held that bagels are mezonos (in Eretz Yisrael) as they are (were?) not used as bread. (And yes, he knew what an “American” bagel was – the person who asked him the shaila told me he made that very clear.)
Basically, it is a very complex question and should be addressed to your competent halachic authority.
I saw today that the Kitzur (48:6 if I recall correctly) also specifically said that soft pretzels were Hamotzi.
I heard from the mouth of R’ Belsky that you must make a Hamotzi.
I have made these delightful pretzels, (no subtitle pun intended) and the prep is same as bread, the mix, rise, and handling of the dough is the same for bread, and the baking is the same. The hot lye (proffesional) or baking soda bath is merely to give it a hard skin, and lye actually imparts a flavor, but this is really no different that the many bakers tricks that are used for crust and appearance in other forms of bread that are all clearly just called bread. So mitzad atzmo, it is a hamotzi.
From another angle, these were commonly sold in kiosks to be eaten on the go, which would give it a “snack profile”. This ignores however, the age-old Jewish abhorrence for public, casual or mindless eating. A person sensitive to the etiquette of chazal, would be kovea seuda, and relish the 6 brochos that come with krich rifta.
What is the bracha on the cheese twists that Dunkin Donuts sells? (Maybe I’ll make a thread about it…)
Now that I think about it I think they are probably hamotzi. It looks like bread. The question is who I could ask to confirm.
Just ask the guy behind the counter. Or toss a coin.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.