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The Gemorah in Rosh Hashanah 6 (and elsewhere) establishes the authority of the Jewish courts to compel people to perform mitzvos. The plain meaning of the Gemorah is that people who are reluctant to perform mitzvos can be compelled through grievous bodily force to obey halacha. Couple this with the authority of beis din to act le-afrushei me-issura/ to distance a potential sinner from his ability to sin, batei dinnim can compel full observance of the Torah, both Mitzvas Asei and Mitzvos Lo Sa’aseh.
Whose Beis Din? Satmar? RCA? None have the legal authority to do so.
This is obviously only an official bet din of the type that no longer exists and not any three Jews.
And?
greatest, let me ask you a question. If your child (just for example) decided he refused to wear tzitzis every day, would you then compel him by beating him black and blue until he listened? How do you think his love for and respect for you would be impacted? How do you think his appreciation of Torah would be affected? Would it grow or diminish?
What is the value of such a mitzvah performed only because he is afraid of being further injured and hurt? What is the relationship between the individual beaten and his family? By extension, what would then be the relationship between the transgressor and the community that compels him, let alone between him and HKBH?
Was that only when there was a Sanhedrin, or does it apply in modern times as well?
Beis Din today is authorized by halacha to do so, but obviously cannot do so under non-Jewish rule and law (by force of the gentiles.) If the secular authorities empowered Beis Din to carry this out, they could do so today. Many times in Jewish history the non-Jewish authorities gave the Jewish community jurisdiction over fellow Jews to mandate Torah law.
For the very same reason today if a Beis Din orders a husband to issue his wife a divorce and he refuses, though they are empowered by halacha to beat him into submission — including in golus here in modern times, they simply cannot do so due to gentile law. Not too long ago, BD did have authority from the goyim to enforce their rule.
And which halachos will you be whipping me and beating me up for breaking? The halacha against wearing jeans? The halacha against eating OU-D? The halacha against talking during laining? The halacha against mistakenly pronouncing a sheva-nach with a sheva-na last night during davening? The halacha against speaking to my wife in the street? The halacha against having pictures of my wife and daughter in my home? Because I’ve been told that all of those are violations of halacha in one way or another.
So, please, bring your cat-o-nine-tails, your goon squad and your enforcers. I’m ready for whatever punishments you want to mete out to me. Come on… I’m wearing jeans right now.
The Wolf
I think being it was posted in inspiration and mussar we are supposed to somehow get it from this!
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just trying!
Rambam writes of various scenarios when contemporary Beis Din would beat someone to force compliance with halacha.
Are you going to beat Sphardim for eating.kitniyos? Me for eating gebrocht?
I volunteer to beat the members of the Botay Dinim everytime they come up with a Psak based on their Negious, not on the Din! I’m sure this doesn’t happen all the time -so I shouldn’t be so busy! 😉
Sushe is right.
I think there was more of forcing people to give Tzedaka, this might been enforced easier.
I don’t know if this would work today. People give quite a lot but want to feel unforced to do this.
Most people who have, give when approached or are touched by a need.
I think the point of beis din being able to force is that Mitzvos are not optional, done voluntarily. Its like a man providing for his family; he ought to WANT to do it, but at the end of the day he is obligated to do it, like it or not, and that is enforceable in court. So too the Mitzvos are something we want to do, but we are also obligated to them, and Beis Din (once) enforces it.
Nowadays we don’t enjoy having to do anything. We want it to be all our choice. But that is not servitude to Hashem. That is being our own boss.
I think its a wonderful message!
Hey, greatest, I see you neatly avoided the question. “If your child (just for example) decided he refused to wear tzitzis every day, would you then compel him by beating him black and blue until he listened?” That is what I asked. That is what you are advocating.
You write – the law takes precedence over feelings. Sure, in the same way a refrigerator takes precedence over a rubber band – It’s more expensive, you are more likely to see it, and it performs an indispensable function, but you wouldn’t – and couldn’t – bundle a newspaper with it.
You discuss compulsion without even considering the alternatives, as if there was no room for kiruv, for patience, for education, for being dan lkaf zchus, for ahavas yisroel, for recognizing that which is done kdas vodin while encouraging more observance.
There’s a kind of governance that fits your description. Used to run a country. In fact, it’s still out there trying to bring back its philosophy of compulsion. Fortunately there are soldiers from my country and yours working hard to stop them. They’re called the Taliban. The word means “students”, and their intense legalistic fanaticism leaves no room for transgression.
vhamayvin yovin
yichusdik, it is most unfortunate that when a liberal doesn’t like a portion of the Torah he starts yelling Taliban.
Who decides the Halacha?
See Shailos Ut’shuvos Maritatz Even Haezer 2:20, I believe. Also, even in cases where we would apply this it would require an accepted Beis Din by an entire community. 3 guys can’t just get together and claim that Beis Din Malkin V’onshin Shelo Min Hadin.
Sushe,
If you’re so eager to follow the Torah, you’re more than welcome to come beat me up for the sins I mentioned above. I won’t even resist or fight back.
The Wolf
And it’s kind of unfortunate that when a kanoi doesn’t like Hillel Hazoken he starts yelling liberal.
Actually, in Israel the Rabbinut batei din can put get refusers in jail as well as take away their drivers licenses and bar them from leaving the country. We are working on a decree that all Jews in Galut pack up and make aliya.
greatest -Hey -Don’t burst his bubble. He’s living in Moshiach times right now.
These posts all demonstrate exactly why it cannot happen until we have a Beis Hamikdash and Sanhedrin again.
Greatest: Even if we were not ruled by non-Jews this wouldn’t be applicable because nowadays, Rachmana Litzlan, Klal Yisrael appears to be incapable of picking a Beis Din that would be Muskam to everyone. Each community would be able to create such a Beis Din for themselves though.
Greatest, that’s a pretty strong “only reason” would you not agree?
Greatest, you remind of the satire of a certain newspaper that carried the headline “if you can’t live in Brooklyn at least be buried there”. What about a Chassidic bet din beating up anybody who eats gebruchts during Pesach and a Litvish bet din beating up anybody who does not? What about Rav Ovadia’s bet din beating up anybody who does not go 100% like the Bet Yosef – including his kulot (Rav Ovadia also oposes the Rema’s chumrot)?
Health, we are all in the time of the footsteps of Mahich. Slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1,1).
I think Health was on the right track. When will it be possible to “force” us to do mitzvos? When HKB”H’s presence will be so clear that it will be questionable if we actually have bechirah anymore, that will be in the times of Moshiach. What is the purpose of a police force in those kinds of times? To force the Yidden to keep the Torah. The problems that yichudisk bring up and the different chumros kept by Jews from different countries will be cleared up by Moshiach and there won’t be a question as to what the halacha is, so everybody’s problems here will be a moot point. Until then, well, there’s no forcing anybody to have Olam Haba is there?
In Europe, beis din sometimes utilzed this halacha.
Maybe greatest is correct
We can beat up abusers, we can beat up those who who dont pay taxes or pay their workers off the books
We can beat up those Kollel guys who go outside for a ciggarette or spend 30 mins fooling around with other guys while taking Tazdekah for the Averiah of Bittul Torah
We can beat up some of the Askans for Genevas Daas
greatest, you used a bad example in the gemoro in Rosh Hashono – It talks about a korbon, which was brought voluntarily (lirtzono), and compulsion isn’t poshut at all in that case. You should have brought the gemoro from kesubos pey vav omud beis, where it says “makin oso ad sheteitzeh nafsho” to make him do a mitzvas aseh.
But this is hard to translate into halocho, because we know that malkos were only given during the time of the sanhedrin, and even then, if the person couldn’t withstand all 39, then the number was reduced – with this statement, ad sheteitzeh nafsho, that limit isn’t considered – so a bdieved miderabonon has a harsher punishment than a mideoraiso? No way.
Also, there is an even bigger issue. The gemoro in the first perek of makkos asks the obvious question about eidim zomemim – if its a laav she’ein bo maaseh, eino lokin olov – in this case, as by NOT doing something, there is no maaseh, how can there be a recourse to beating the person, even to death, comparable and even more severe than makkos? Again, and now in this context, Are you prepared to have your son beaten to death if he refuses your compulsion to put on tzitzis? because that is what you are suggesting is OK by quoting the gemoro as you did for applicability today.
Finally, as you should have noticed, both issues in both R’H and kesubos are from braisos, not mishnayos, and thus as you well know don’t have the same status in halocho, even if they do have the strength to make a point in the gemoro.
Both Rambam and I believe Shulchan Aruch too bring it as halacha l’maisa that Beis Din can beat someone.
Both Rambam and I believe Shulchan Aruch too bring it as halacha l’maisa that Beis Din can beat someone.
If you truly feel that way, put your (figurative) money where your mouth is. I’ve given you plenty of reasons to come beat me up above in this thread. Form a bais din and come do so.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings,
I’ve given you plenty of reasons to come beat me up above in this thread. Form a bais din and come do so.
I don’t know about your family, but my wife would be pretty upset with me and scared if I posted something like that to the Internet where potentially unstable people could read it.
I don’t know about your family,
I was not allowing them to beat anyone except myself.
The Wolf
Avram’s point was your family would be scared for *your* welfare. Doesn’t that concern you? Furthermore, the many sins you outline about yourself are shared by family members; so an invitation to do justice upon you would equally apply to others in the family.
Doswin,
Avram’s point was your family would be scared for *your* welfare. Doesn’t that concern you?
Yes, that was my point.
so an invitation to do justice upon you
Technically, I don’t think the OP’s point was to say that a beis din should beat people who have done [insert activity here], which is purely retributive, but rather to discuss the permissibility of a beis din using beatings to elicit future compliance with halacha, which, when it was in effect, was probably an exceptionally rare occurrence. This is splitting hairs, I know, but the distinction is important.
This is not to say I agree with or support the OP, on the contrary, I think s/he was trolling to garner outraged responses at the expense of halacha, and was richly rewarded.
We can beat up abusers,
This is the only way to do it. Many of them are arrested and get light sentences. Rav Shtarkman’s 1000-pound beis din is the only deterrent to abusers.
we can beat up those who who dont pay taxes or pay their workers off the books
====================
WRONG! We are not allowed to act as enforcement agents for non beis din related crimes and we certainly cannot act as vigilantes for the government. Nonpayment of Jewish workers – yes, we should act. Anything else – that’s the government’s business and we who are straight pay taxes for government enforcement agencies that are supposed to weed out those who are not. Mesira is ossur lemehadrin in most cases. Abuse is one case where it is not, and so too might be reporting an investment scheme with Jewish victims. Otherwise, the only type of financial crime I would even ask a shyla about, is if I myself had to go to a consumer protection agency to get recourse against a frum seller for an item where beis din costs would be more than its value.
If anything, we should have lynched some members of the US government for letting Jews perish during the churban rather than allowing them into the US. That was the one thing the radical tzioinim did right (to the British) during the war.
Apparently the OP likes to talk the talk but not walk the walk.
Figures. He talks big about beating people up to bring them in line with halacha but when offered the chance does nothing to follow up on it. And that’s even after I said that I’d offer no resistance.
The Wolf
The OP also apparently doesn’t like discussions on his sources that don’t clearly support his contention.
No one cited any sources that argue on the OP’s source. The only other sources mentioned were Rambam and S”A in support of the OP’s Gemorah.
I think physically harming people to get them to obey halacha transgresses Diracheha Darchei Noam. And the rare exceptions where it was allowed are laws that we cannot comprehend.
Also, I’m sure that such a method in our generation will cause more Jews to despise the Torah rather than love it.
I think physically harming people to get them to obey halacha transgresses Diracheha Darchei Noam. And the rare exceptions where it was allowed are laws that we cannot comprehend.
None of this is correct:
It does not transgress anything.
It was not rare.
We can comprehend it just fine.
Hershi: You’re ignoring my Maharitatz and the fact that a Beis Din capable of doing this would have to be accepted by the entire community it presides over.
I did, see above.
“None of this is correct:
It does not transgress anything.
It was not rare.
We can comprehend it just fine.”
That is what you think, and that’s fine. I think differently.
And since you said nothing against my second point, I take it you agree with it.Is that a fair assumption?
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