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it is getting worse and worse every day! we need an “eitza”.
Please provide evidence for your assertion that “it is getting worse and worse every day.”
The Wolf
What is the shidduch crisis?
Here are some definitions of some terms:
Shidduch difficulty- when you and your friend are single.
Shidduch crisis- when your friend is married and you aren’t.
Then, Mutty, the way to solve the crisis is to get married!
tr……..
tralala
the wolf: because i am not married
That’s not evidence of anything beyond a possible *personal* shidduch crisis. It’s certainly not evidence of a larger shidduch crisis that is getting “worse and worse” every day.
The Wolf
why cant we make shidduchim right here???!!!
why cant we make shidduchim right here???!!!
I’ll do it. RC will marry muttie.muttie.
See, I’m just like the roman noblewoman in the gemara.
In any event, there are plenty of frum dating sites, of all types and genres. This website is for complaining about dating, not for dating.
What’s so hard, Mutty? Say yes to every shiddich redt, and always say yes to another date. Anytime you reach 5 or 6 dates, propose. I assure you that you will get married sooner rather than later.
Crisis solved.
why is this considered a crisis?
my parents generation did not get married at 18,19,20.
they got married older and it was not a crisis then.
why is it one now?
mutty.mutty
Member
the wolf: because i am not married
are you a girl?
i have a simple solution: any girl that doesnt get married within 2 years of high school has to give me $20,000. i will invest that money in blue chip stocks and triple a bonds in order to make money off your money. but dont worry, i will absolutely make sure that you can get your money back at any time before you get married. i will then pass your name along to any boy i see whether its the right fit or not because, you see, i have a financial interest in seeing you married. once you get married, the keren is mine (in any event, the money i make from the investment is mine). i keep some of the keren for myself and the rest i give to my friends and family.
radical, huh?
We remove the takana and marry two wives again.
i dont suspect he wants to marry a grandmother of 8!! (happily married BH) i meant for us to suggest people we know who are looking. Use the internet for what its good for…. networking!!!
I don’t see a shidduch problem or crisis. Part of being an adult means making your own choices. Adults are the ones who marry, not children If the “shidduch system” isn’t working for an individual, that individual should choose an alternate system. The s/he chooses not to, for any number of reasons, is his/her prerogative, but not my problem.
cantoresq –
a very good point, but not very fair. One may stay in a system they consider correct, even if it they are having problems within it. And if so, it would be the resposibility of all those who are part of that system to do their best to make it work for all “members”.
I would like to post an idea about the “shidduch crisis” I don’t believe is much discussed.
The assumption seems to be that if there really is an age gap, any measure taken that does not narrow the gap cannot help much.
I suggest:
It is in the hands of Shadchanim to redt shidduchim as they please. If we simply took away the advantages the boys have today, the field would be evened out considerably.
If shidduchim were redt simultaneously to the boy and girl, suddenly girls too would have long lists. The girls would say more no’s, the boy would no longer be so confident to say no, and he would begin to have more realistic expectations. This would give girls who used to sit and wait for dates, more of an oppurtunity.
Also: With an even playing field, many more girls with “less attractive” resumes would get married earlier, some who do have those “qualities” would be around longer – and an older girl with looks, money, and all other “important” qualities definitely have an easier time to keep on getting dates.
Loigician:
Please explain how your idea closed the age gap.
The reason the boys have is as you started, becasue of age gap. You then make a suggestion that doesn’t address age gap.
I am having difficulty following your logic…
Logician, if the participants in the system are having problems, how can they believe it is the correct system for them? People have every right to sacrifice their personal fulfillment upon the altar of arbitrary communal standards which dictate proper socialization. i.e. Frum people can forgo possibly meeting their spouse and having a family in the interest of towing the party line. That is their choice to make and I hope they ultimately find the transaction profitable. But their ennui or angst over that choice isn’t my problem.
cantoresq – if it would be arbitrary standards, you would be correct. However, people who date within the shaddchan system believe that is the right way (I hope), as do all participants in that system. If you believe in a system which will break down for a large of number of participants,you should feel obligated to make the system work.
cantoesq – and if you feel its nothing more than “party line” standards, then yes, you have no moral obligation to help.
cantoresq – how can a system be right if it does not work for you ? Lets consider an extreme example – does the Torah work for an Agunah ? Should she go OTD in order to get married ? We all sacrifice personally for our beliefs. Of course, this assumes my previous point – that these girls believe they are doing the RIGHT thing. Can it be this is an important enough issue to sacrifice a family for ? Good question – but not your original point.
AZ – I know i was pretty vague, i’ll clarify soon
It is in the hands of Shadchanim to redt shidduchim as they please. If we simply took away the advantages the boys have today, the field would be evened out considerably.
How would redting names to girls create more boys?
az, daasyochid –
If indeed there is an age gap, then the only true solution is really closing it. That having been said, I still believe it could be alleviated.
The common age gap idea is based on “shidduch island” – more 19 yr. old girls entering shidduchim than 22 yr. old boys. I think there are other factors as well: Even with 50/50 entering, the boys have an advantage. As they get older, more girls enter shidduchim, and they can marry them as well. As a girl gets older, her prospects only get slimmer. My idea would help this specific cause of the ga, because:
1)I know many terrific older singles, but lets face it: A gorgeous, rich etc. etc. girl has a better chance of geting the guys to look at her despite her age. Evening out the field would marry off more girls who dont “have everyhting going for them”, and the others will still get looked at, giving more prospects to older singles
2)Boys will be less confident of their advantage, and not always think they can “wait around for next years batch”, and therefore more girls will get married before the new ones hit the market.
Hi Mr DY,
Try not to be as close minded as your fuhrer. The OP is suggesting that there is no shortage of boys, just the illusion of a shortage due to lists. Obviously you disagree on the fundamentals, so you can’t really add to this discussion unless you accept the premise for argument’s sake.
squeak – just to ckarify: as my last post explains,
I’m not disagreeing with the shortage,just suggesting that there are many factors, and we can take care of some of them.
Logician:
“Indeed there is an age gap, then the only true solution is really closing it.”
That logic is correct
“Even with 50/50 entering, the boys have an advantage. As they get older, more girls enter shidduchim, and they can marry them as well.”
That logic is not correct- Case in point- Chassidishe Families….
(or it’s a minisucle factor. since the vast vast majority of boys get married quickly adn don’t sit around waiting for next group of new girls.)
But not the time/place nor enregy to debate that.
THIS being said… If you have a idea…. GO RUN WITH IT do NOT listen to any naysayers.
GO MAKE A DIFFERENCE
Hazlacha Rabbah!!!!!!
Logician, I’m all in favor and fully support personal self sacrifice in the name of an ideal. It’s one of the basic components of a religious life. But your suggested comparison of those people unable to easily meet eligible spouses in the shidduch system with an agunah is misplaced to say the very least. The Talmud does not refer to a shidduch system. Rather it talks about the 15th of Av and Yom Kippur afternoon. The meeting rituals there are very different than the current shidduch system. Given the lack of any primary textual support for the current system, I label it arbitrary. But it is the Torah, the Talmud and theit application that engenders the pathetic agunah situation. The two are hardly comparable on any plain.
The crisis was already solved by Nasi institute; To further their cause, if a boy gets engaged to a girl well below his age, talk them out of the engagement & re-seek a spouse in their age gap, or girl older, and the crisis is solved.
Furthermore, being that we are all computer literate [or we would not be in this coffee room] we can access Shiduchim over the computer on Orthodate & Frumster, and guess what:- No Shadchonus fee upon Mission Accomplished.
cantoresq – did you hear me equating the two ? You said that a system cannot be correct for you if it doesn’t work for you. i simply gave an example showing that that is not true.
You are entitled to label something arbitrary. But if someone disagrees – as I assume those ascribing to the shidduch system do – then they are entitled to help from those who are part of that system. You believe its arbitrary, so those trying to help the shidduch crisis are not addressing you.
az-
i fail to see how chasiddeshe families factor into the equation. We are discussing the crisis within a community where my logic does hold true. You want to change that – go right ahead and try. But the way things stand, what I said is a big factor in widening the gap – the fact is the older boys keep on dating 19-20 yr olds. Go to Lkwd and ask a guy a couple of months out of the freezer whats up with his dating, you’ll often hear how he exhausted the more “attractive” offers he had, and hopes to receive more from the “fresh” girls…
“(or it’s a minisucle factor. since the vast vast majority of boys get married quickly adn don’t sit around waiting for next group of new girls.)”
true – the 25 yr old girl doesn’t have many prospects, because most boys got married at 22-25. But if i’m right, we can minimize the amount of girls getting to that point in the first place.
If the age gap is a rea; problem, we can basically give up now – we will never have boys in the market at 19, the gap will never be closed.
Logician,
AZ is bringing chassidishe families as a raya that where there’s no large age gap, there is no communal shidduch crises.
I’m not sure if you really so acknowledge the fact that we’re not at 50/50; on one hand you disagreed with squeak, on the other hand, you wrote, “if the age gap is a real problem”.
Did it occur to anyone that, perhaps – just perhaps, Hashem designed the world so that boys generally have the upper hand in shidduchim? It seems to have been like that since time immerorial in the Jewish community. Just look back at our history and consider how dowries worked, where the girls side would need to provide the boy a dowry. And it’s called Hachnosos Kallah; for some reason it wasn’t generally known as Hachnosos Chosson.
As far as the hard numbers are concerned, at one time in our history, and in some communities not all that long ago, men sometimes had more than one wife. And I do not recall any halachic responsa or literature expressing any concern that this was resulting in some men being unable to get married (since other men were marrying more than one girl, thus leaving insufficient girls for other unlucky men.) It would thus seem logical that there were always more girls in the shidduch supply than boys, throughout our history.
DY –
of course, I understood he was doing that, but that is not relevant to the discussion of pinpointing the problem in communities where it is a problem.
I understand the logic of the age gap, just am not convinced of its ramifications. For example, from what i understand, the concept of girls marrying younger is not an historical anomaly, so I wonder whats changed.
I agree – my suggestions as well would in no way serve as a comprehensive solution. I was just pointing out that if I were totally convinced that the age gap problem is whats its made out to be, and since it doesn’t seem feasible to ever close it, that means we are forced to the logical conclusion that X% off girls are doomed. I don’t know how I’d sleep at night if I thought we were facing that. (not that that proves anything, just pointing out what the ramifications of the age gap theory really are)
logician:
you are correct and you are wrong.
You are correct that the age is the problem that it is made out to be as well as it’s ramifications.
you are wrong that it doesn’t seem feasible to sovle it.
It actaully is very very solvable, and it doesn’t nor should it be solved over night.
B”H much progress has been on that front, and much progress will imy”h continue to be made. B”h there are actually people (unfortanetly far to few) who have been losing sleep over the ramifications of the problem, and for the last half decade those people have been very succesful at bringing about significant change, and iy”h more is on the way.
stay tuned
AZ,those people have been very succesful at bringing about significant change, and iy”h more is on the way.
stay tuned
AZ, were all waiting! Hopefully what comes next will be more palatable than the recent NASI offering which was nausea inducing for many normally very tolerant and easygoing ehrlich people.
Much progress has been made to help older singles – true. To close the gap – I’m not aware, please specify. And as I said earlier – while its definitely worthwhile to close it somewhat, it is not possible to close it completely, and if so, according to this way of thinking, many girls are and will always be doomed.
AZ and DY: What are your thoughts on my two comments?
Cantoresq, the system you are criticizing is required by gedolim, RYs, etc. It isn’t working because the girls are brought up right but their own parents don’t think they have to give Kollel support. As a result, many boys go off the program (“working boys”) and are not fit for shidduch. People can’t wreck the system and then complain that it doesn’t work.
Sushe,
I don’t really know whether the disparity in numbers is a historical anomaly or an old problem (although medical advances might very well have allowed a population growth not seen since Mitzrayim), and I’m not sure what impact that has on a possible solution.
If the implication of your observations is that we should therefore allow this problem to continue, because it’s Hashem’s will that many women never marry, that would be a radical hashkafa which our gedolim have obviously not embraced.
Logician:
The problem (going forward) CAN be totally solved, and there is no need to close the age gap completely.
In fact: closing it completely will actually create a reverse problem.
Regarding the progress that has been made, please pay attention. Do some research on the NAI Project and what they’ve been after and what they’ve accomplished in the last four plus years.
Speak to shadchanim about the difference in attitudes amongst boys and thier parents and their ability to succesfully redd shidduchim of girls to boys their same age or even if the boys are younger.
Sushe:
Please read the letter from 70 R”Y. Apprently they don’t feel like you.
Finally (this is not to you logician/sushe) I would apreciate if posters whom i have specifically writeen that i will NOT respond to -pending their apology to shadchanim at large for unaccceptable accusations – should please not ask me questions. I don’t want it to look as if i’m avoiding their questions.
In case you missed it, her it is from antoher thread
MSS:
“The top Lakewood Shadchanim dont call back/never meet/dont bother with any girls who dont have reputations for being either the smartest, richest or prettiest.”
I have no need to ever respond to any post of yours ever again. This is so blatantly false
Remember i’m about as big advocate in this forum to help girls get married especially the girls who aren’t married at 19/20 as they come…. you may agree with some of the tacticas promoted and you may disagree but it’s safe to say that i’m posting looking to help the young woment who aren’t married chik chak- fair enough?
MSS: Your comment is so totally out of line, motzei shem ra, libel. you should be embarassed of yourself, and comments like these simply ruin your credibility on all similar shidduch discussions.)
(as an aside, NASI Project can produce the facts to back up what i just wrote-though obviously this is not the forum to publicize such facts- but as a result of the various progams they’ve been running over the years they have come to know very clearly which shadchanim focus on which kinds of girls both in terms of shidduchinm made and dates set up, in additon to haven gotten to know the shadhcanim on a personal level.
Bl”n until you take that back i will not respond to any post of your regarding anything to do with the NASI Project.
Adios
For one thing it’s time that parents stop demanding their son’s only marry girls whose father promise to support them…
There are plenty of eligible good girls who can’t get dates because they don’t come from money; and would require their future husbands to work…for many this is a deal breaker….
This is how it works…as they say; you have to pay to play!
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