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so this whole bet shemesh spitter thing has gotten a bit out of control with some calling for hate rallies against charedim and charedim protesting wearing concentration camp uniforms (please save the nitpicking over my use of charedim for another thread, ive heard it all) and i think what we can ALL agree on is that this has gotten way too far this all started back in Emannuel and has snowballed to this mess we now find ourselves in.
as far as i can tell, that part of eretz yisrael has gotten far too sectarian and divided, with lines being drawn in the sand that must not be crossed at any cost. now while everyone is entitled to their particular chumros, thats what they are: chumros. and as such, one has no right to enforce them on another, even his own wife. the girls at the school in emmanuel were not frei, were not chiloni, they simply had a different standard which was apparently unacceptable for everyone else.
the girl who was spit on was not chiloni, was not dressed in a prutza fashion, she simply did not conform to the locale’s idea of which chumros should be kept. now it goes without saying (and i sincerely hope people actually read this before posting below because im about to preempt about 25 posts) that no matter how the girl was dressed, or how lax she was or wasnt in her tznius, that such behaviour is never called for.
here in the US, and i understand that things are different here in the US, boro park and flatbush, i would say, have different standards of tznius, but i would say, for the most part, that both conform to a basic standard of tznius. obviously though your average chassidishe woman dresses differently than your average flatbush woman (please save all the “why are you staring at women” and “omg im so offended cuz i happen to be an exception” posts for a different thread, im not interested) and yet we have never seen something like this happening here in the US between boro park and flatbush even though the standards in tznius are very different.
in fact its gotten to the point in israel, based on what ive seen, that people are justifying, or at the very least rationalizing, the spitting by saying that the essential idea behind what happened was ok because what he was doing essentially was standing up for hilchos tznius and therefore while the actual action was wrong, the driving force behind it was not. something else that keeps coming up is that “they keep coming into our area when they know we’re different–theyre provoking us”
im sorry, no. there is no rationalizing what has been happening lately, there is no explaining it away, and there is NO justifying it whatsoever no matter what the mans intention and no matter how l’shem shamayim he thought he was. and by the way…where do these people get the chutzpah to call it “their” area?! their area?! really?! and who made it theirs? what makes one area any less eretz YISRAEL for one and any more for the other?!
so what if dati leumi wants to build a school in a charedi area! what gives them the rights to the land any more than dati leumi?! seriously! its public property and the government can apportion it any way it wants. so people say that the government does it to provoke the charedim. personally i think that anyone who says that is simply underscoring a serious problem in israel at the moment where dati’im have gotten so sectarian that they’re starting to act like gangs and lay claim to neighbourhoods to the point where sopme have begun to suggest a solution similar to what the UN did in Sudan.
we are not shiites and sunnis. we are not hutus and tutsis. we are jews. you think a jew is doing something he or she shouldnt? tell him or her. dont spit. dont yell. dont protest. dont make a mockery out of yourself my protesting wearing concentration camp uniforms. i grew up with holocaust survivors and i was disgusted by the story about the protest because they obviously have no idea what they were doing or symbolizing. the israeli government are not nazis and neither is dati leumi.
seriously, i know things in israel have always been a bit partisan bu this is going way too far.
And if, in fact, some people are dressing in a manner that is not considered tznius according to halacha (despite their insistence that it is), and are coming in that manner in public view in their neighborhoods and boys schools, and do not change this practice despite requests to, should not they at least have the right to peacefully protest?
Shouting insults is protected by secular law. As far as halacha, dressing in a manner that is not considered tznius according to halacha is, well, against halacha.
TL;DR
Even your precious paragraph breaks cant redeem you
The Ultra Charedim can “peacefully protest” fin heint biz morgin, if their desires are not part of the constitution. If their desires are not part of the constitution, it will not change, and it musnt change. No one has the right to infringe on others’ rights.
For control over a country’s constitution, they have to be the majority and have those changes voted in (no short sleeves worn by women). Theyre not the majority.
“Peacefully protest” they may, though.
Accomplish? Doubtful!
should not they at least have the right to peacefully protest?
Shouting insults is protected by secular law.
10952: What in the world are you talking about? Who cares what the legal rights are? It is mean and disgusting, and assur, to yell at people like that.
You have a legal right to verbally abuse your kid until they commit suicide also.
If you wish to discuss the halachic aspect than you need to acknowledge that the protest themselves are protesting a breach in halacha.
The protest is against violations of actual halacha, not chumra.
Not justifying spitters and screamers here! Not at all! But think about this for a moment.
So the chilonim and Dati types have a right to their lifestyle. Who are the chareidim to tell them where to sit on a bus, and how to dress in the street? But don’t the chareidim also have that right? They want to sit separate. They want their children to dress in a certain way. So you say well, not in Yerushalayim. It’s an international city. Everyone wants to be there. Not right to put such restrictions on the hamon am like that. Better go somewhere out of town and build your own community, then you can have your own standards. So they go to Beit Shemesh or Emmanuel or Monroe or New Square or Lakewood or wherever, you fill in the blank. Now they can’t live as they wish in their own neighborhood? And people come to their place and say, no its not right to impose your standard on us. Well, that’s why they went away from the big yishuv! To start their own, because they also have freedom to live and worship as they please!
Why are only the chilonim and Datiim allowed to live as they choose? Why aren’t the chareidim allowed that same option? They, and their wives, and their children choose happily to live like that. So why does it bother everyone if chas veshalom someone wants to be a little frummer?
When it comes to gashmiyus, there is a bare minimum. But when people strive for more than the requirements, it is considered laudable. But when it comes to ruchniyus, everyone says, “But that’s a chumra and not required.” So what if its not required? Why can’t people strive to lead a higher lifestyle in kiyum hamitzvos?
Once again, not justifying the spitters and the harrasers! Just the desire to elevate oneself should be seen as an ideal!!
Soliek: don’t ruin your OP with Emmanuel mention. I don’t see how that figures at all. Irrelevant, with a totally different catalyst and players.
midwesterner:
they are not frumer.
just because they where white and black and and cover there whole arms and legs does not make them any frumer. they are not makyem the mitzvot any better than you or me
10952:
tzniut is only a catalyst they are upset because they want that particular building and that the school is tziyoni. secondly the girls that go to the school dress tzniut according to halacha. don’t confuse halachot and chumrot.
10952 can you please detail where there is Halachik violation ?
Midwesterner, if they want to, they should move to some Yishuv where everyone is like them.
If you are living amongst other types of people you can’t be violent for no reason.
Does this make sense to you? do you want to have a war every day?
What if they would start up with the wrong person who is armed and kills the violent Chareidi, is that oK? It was self defense.
You see, where this all leads to?
It starts with these sick protests over how someone observes Tznius.
Observe she does.
Peaceful protest such as explaining why your Tznius is better is one thing.
But they never protest peacefully. Please show me one time they did.
So, if you already know that for decades no Chareidi protest has been peaceful, why would you think this time it would be,
Also don’t forget the excrement throwers, that has been lost but it did happen also.
The whole concept of marginalizing others leads to this.
So overall it is better to stop with the protesting, perahps you can see this.
I don’t expect they will though but a miracle is possible.
wow how violent you sound, please calm down
just have a laugh at these people who when protesting destroy their own neighborhood! they are just putting there own taxes up
soliek -“and the only thing he apologizes for is for doing an interview on TV and the only peopel to whom he apologizes ARE THE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN COMMUNITY, that sends a terrible message and makes our allies think twice about supporting us.”
I’m all for peace and condenming the actions of a few Charedim, but only if it’s reciprocated. All the Freye do is incite more and more hatred against Charedim. It’s not discrimination to have private buses that are separated. It’s not discrimination to not have to see Pritzus in their own neighborhood in Bet Shemesh. This isn’t pre-war Germany where we have to beg for forgiveness. It is discrimination Not to hire s/o who won’t work on Shabbos. This goes on here in the US & in Israel. Just like the world has no idea what Marriage is anymore -they think it’s also between the same gender, they also have no idea what discrimination is! Where are all these Rabbis decrying the discrimination against Shabbos observers? Or is it they only don’t like bad publicity from the Goyim in this world? All of a sudden people are outraged about a few dressed as Holocaust Prisoners. If you care about right & wrong -where is the outrage about Religious employment discrimination?
soliek -“The protest is against violations of actual halacha, not chumra.”
“such as?”
Such as women taking their kid to school and not dressed the least bit Tzinus. Read my posts under 8 year old etc…!
To 10952
The girl had arms and legs covered. She didn’t wear stocking. So I send to check the Mishna Berurah on Hilchos Krias Shema saying that the shok is from the knee and upward, meaning that there’s no chyuv to cover the leg from under the knee to the feet. The Chazon Ish agree with that. To cover or not this part is a question of minhag.
But onaas devarim is not halacha too?
Yoni the yogi -The mother wasn’t Tzinus. Go back to sleep.
soliek -“yes but we claim to hold ourselves to a higher standard”
So therefore?
She was and is dressed Tznius. Please stop lies and bashing of fine Jews. That is what you do best, denounce other Jews. This is the worst thing that a Jew can do. They are not flaunting anything, stop hating them they are people just stop hating them I think you can.
adams -I saw the picture of her on her couch before she wisened up. (And the mother was Not Tzinus.) But keep telling yourself that Charedim are nuts and spit at people who don’t keep their Chumros. And then you wonder why I say you Hate Charedim!
To health
Good morning, thank you , I went to sleep and I woke up. Thank God. You may be right on what you said on some point about her mother. But I was talking about the girl and this little one didn’t violate any halacha. Second of all , if I follow you, it’s ok with the halacha to spit ateople and insult them, because that’s where is the problem.
I hope you had also a good night sleep.
I wanted to add that it’s right that the secular media uses this opportunity to bash the Chareidim. I don’t generalize about them. I focuse on a particular person who did an horrible thing and it happens that he belongs to the charedim faction. I judge him for what he did no for who he is. I don’t think that there’s one group wrong and another right. I’m sure that both parties have some good points.
To health, I want to apologize to you ,because my answer to you was not really mentsch. I hope you forgive me and I wish you a good day.
Soliek: There are crazies in Meah Shearim and crazies in Beit Shemesh. Why equate that fraction with the whole?
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