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What do we treat our ovens as? Are they a tanur? Is the ??? ????? Is it like cooking under a ?????
That reminds me of a Henny Youngman joke. “My wife says to me, ‘I want you to take me somewhere I’ve never been before.’ So I took her to the kitchen.”
It is ??? ???? and not the same as ????.
R’ Moshe holds that our ovens are the same as a machavas. My rav and rosh chabura both hold there is no issue of zeiah in our ovens at all. A guy in Lakewood put out a sefer saying that you do not need to burn out an oven between milk and meat, and that possibly you can cook them both together uncovered. In R’ Belsky’s haskama he goes to town on the guy saying you can’t uproot the minhag that the women always had to burn out ovens, simply by your pilpul. The guy asked R’ Shlomo Miller who said he doesn’t remember there ever being such a minhag (I think this is in the footnotes, but I heard it from my rosh chabura). Also, they say R’ Aharon held there was no problem.
I would agree with Yitay mi’Ikar HaDin, but l’Chatchila I recommend people should wait 24 hours and run it on high for a while. Certainly, the rack the pan is placed on must be cleaned.
hello99, my rav agrees with you. So we wait 24 hours and self-clean. Our toaster oven is on the fritz, so we have been self-cleaning more than usual of late.
They are going like R’ Moshe.
In general, I think the best way to analyze your query regarding modern ovens is not to compare to labels in Shulchan Aruch and cases mentioned there. Rather, I would break down the question like this.
1) YD 108/Reicha/Tanur-Not relevant for many reasons. Our ovens, especially American ones, are large and have ventilation. Additionally, there is no Reicha consecutively, and it is highly unlikely and not recommended to cook Kosher and non-Kosher or meat and dairy simultaneously in the same oven.
3) Mamashus- Pieces of caked on grease could fall from the roof of the oven onto the new food, and if they are edible there would be a problem. However, this can easily be solved by a simple cleaning, and no Kashering is necessary for this concern. More problematic is the possibility that the grates/racks the pans are placed on could have residue on them (Bliyos would not be problematic due to Shtei Kedeiros). A thorough cleaning would solve this issue. A simpler solution is to place a sheet of aluminum foil on the rack and under the pan. This wat, any possible Bliyos will only penetrate the foil, but cannot continue in to the pan due to Shtei Kedairos.
Still, as a general behavior, I cannot recommend using the same oven for Milchigs and Fleishigs, both uncovered. However, minimum precautions are sufficient.
This is just off the cuff, I’m not holding in the Sugya at the moment.
was this helpful?
Wow! I don’t think you could do better even if you were holding in the sugya.
Thanks for the compliment. I would have cited names and precise sources.
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