average shadchan rates?

What a shame that in 2011 shidduchim has become a BUSINESS. Yes, shadchanim are entitled to a fee, but it has gotten outrageous that there is now a going rate that needs to be raised in order for the shadchan to work harder for you, regardless of financial status.

While no one is doing statistical analysis or gathering data in a systematic way, I believe the median for persons arranging a shidduch is an invitation to the wedding and maybe a small gift (the average is higher since a few people spending lots of money can raise an average). I’m very skeptical that “professionals” are close to a majority as opposed to friends, family and acquaintances.

If you are going to a shachan, then ask up front what their rates are. If someone you know is bringing the shidduch to you and they are NOT a professional shadchan then you can either ask them what they would like for shadchanus or ask your Rav what to give.

We have discussed this issue here in the past and it got very complicated. There were those who considered themselves “shadchanim” since they made many shidduchim but did not really put out a shingle and expected the “going rate” of a professional but did not “invoice” the baal simcha and was very upset when she did not get “paid”. Rightly so. Although it is the responsibility of the Choson & Kallah to pay the Shadchonim before going to the Chupah, a professional shadchan would have a written contract and therefore there would NOT be any misunderstandings. BTW, a Chosson Rebbe and a Kallah Teacher will usually discuss this and remind the C&K to make sure that the shadchan is paid up before the chupah.

If you are in doubt what to pay, you can ask your Kallah Teacher, since you would most likely be taking classes in your local neighborhood and the “going rate” would be whatever is right for that neighborhood. What is very important to remember is the Shadchan MUST get paid before the chupah. There are many inyanim brought down about fertility problems and shalom bayis issues if the Shadchan doesn’t get paid.

Whatever the rate is, I am sure that everyone here wishes you much hatzlocha in find your zivig and may you be zoche to pay the shadchan!

Based on inpuut numerous people it seems that 1000-1500 each side is standard “in town”.

You forgot to mention that these rates are for when the girl is younger than 22.

aries: Perhaps your aren’t familir with the typical style of how shadchanim operate. You may be uncomfortable with it, but the vast vast majority of shadchanim including the most prolific in the country have never told anyone any rate for a completed shidduch. People give them what they want.

That doesn’t change the halachic obligation for the parties to compensate the shadchan according to community norms. Perhaps you would like to instite a societal change whereby shadchanim stated up front what thier rates were, hwoever the present situation being what it is, the parties are obligated to compensate them accordingly. Furthermore, unless there is a structure, whereby non proffesional shadchanim get compensated different than proffesional shadchanim, the requirement would be to compensate non prossionals the same as proffesonals.

As for you comment re: the shadhan “must get paid before the chuppah”. I don’t believe that to be halachically correct. When one needs to pay the shadchan is at the time shadchanus is due-no a day earlier, and one shouldn’t pay a day later- when that date is will also depend on community norms. Some place the stlye is to pay after engagement and some places the stle is to pay after the wedding. Under the present system for shadchanus, the halachos of compensating shadchanim are part and parcel for the halachos of paying “kablonim” – workers who get paid for completing a job- and thus follow those guidlines.

Dash: To the best of my knowledge, (although i fully agree that the more difficult a shidduch or the older the parites in question, the more one should compensate the shadhcan) being that that is not stadard practice – and compnesation for workers commisioned or otherwise where no price has been set in advance is governed by societal norms – thus halacha doesn’t require it.

APY:

look like it

(unless the definition of proffesional is one who quotes a fee). for the purposes of this discussion i am defining proffesional as one who devotes the vast majority of their waking hours to redding shidduchim.

Perhpas other people have other definiations of proffesional shadchanim.

No shadchan ever quoted me a fee. It would have been better if they had, because then I could have bargained.

Imagine if a shadchan tells me her fee. I would say, forget it. I’m only going out if its for free. And she would say yes, since she can just double the fee on the girls.

I would be happy. AZ would be happy. The CR would be sad.

apushatayid:

I think we are referring to different types of shadchanim.

AZ, since you choose to converse directly with me, lets go at it. Obviously there are generations that separate us, but what the heck, lets go. Yes the halacha is that the shadchan has to get paid before the Chuppah. Now AZ, FYI, that doesn’t mean literally that the shadchan meets you and your parents at the end of the isle or at the chuppah itself. What it does mean is this. No one should walk down to the chuppah if they have NOT paid the shadchan, it is a bad omen. It is THAT important to pay the shadchan that one should not even consider walking down to the chupah if the shadchan isn’t paid.

The Torah does not designate when that has to be, but it did show the importance of paying the shadchan and that a chupah should NOT take place if the shadchan was not paid. I hope we are clear on that and there is no misunderstanding about it.

The halachic obligations of paying the shadchan is satisfied if one gives the shadchan a dollar. That is considered paid. Ask your LOR. There is no halacha that states anything about “Community Norms”. Please show me where that is brought down.

As far as fees are concerned there are some very well known shadchanim in BP who I was made aware of when my daughter was dating 15 years ago who took $10,000. One of those shadchanim called ME when my sons were of age, he said to me “I heard you have boys, I have girls” I said no thank you. How did he hear? It didn’t matter, my point is this. Everyone knew what the professional shadchanim charged. There was no norm in MY community and there still isn’t. In my circles at the time we gave gifts. My friend told me that her friend set her up, and she gave her $1,000 and she heard years later that she bad mouthed her and said she could have afforded to give her much more since she got married at 40.

If you don’t want anyone badmouthing you the lesson we learn from this is to ask what they want. AZ, who exactly sets the NORM for the community? What is the NORM for BP? Is it different if you live above 13th avenue? Below? Is it different if you live in the 40’s, 50’s or 60’s? There are different economic scales even in BP. What is the community NORM for Flatbush? Is it the same in Midwood as in Madison? What about the Sefardi community, is it the same? Kensington? Marine Park? Ditmas Park? Is Brooklyn then considered one Community? What about Five Towns? Is Shadchanas norm different in Far Rockaway than Lawrence? Is Lawrence different than Cedarhurst? Is Five Towns the same as Queens? Is the East Coast the same as the West Coast?

Can you clarify? Or does it have more to do with what the parents can afford?

Aries:

Shulchan Aruch disagrees with your points.

There is no difference between shadchanim and any other services provided. If you would like i will qoute you chapter and verse from the shuldchan aruch.

here’s a start (i just pulled this off a website called Businesshalacha.com and did a search using the word shadchanus)

???? ??????

??”? ??”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ???’ ?”? ?

????? ???”? ??”? ??’ ?”? ?”? ??”? ?

??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’ ?

??”? ??’ ??”? ???’ ?’ ????’ ?’ ?

Paying a dollar certainly does NOT fulfill the halchachic obligation any more that it would if a electircian came by to fix your light fixture and didn’t qoute a price. Does that depend on BP or FR. 13th ave or Flatbush. That is certainly a legitimate question that should be answered by a competent posek in these matters. It is not specifically related to shadchanus anymore than it is realted to any other service provider who didn’t make a clear agreement prior to providing the service.

Regarding paying before the chassuna or afterwards, with my deepest sympathies to “bad omens” they generally don’t consitute codified halacha. If one would like to do so, they by all means may. However unless that is the community custom it can not be enforced. If a shadchan would demand payment before the chassuna but no clear custom has been established, then the chosson/Kallah sides would be (to the best of my understnading) in their halachic right, for waiting until after the chassuna to pay.

This actually has potential ramifications for scenarios when a shidduch breaks off. Look in shulchan and commentators where this is disucssed.

This all being said, For what it’s worth I personally do think it is apporpriate to give the shadchan commesurate shadchanus shortly after the engagment if not at the actaul engagment party. Nothing to do with bad omens, but everything to do with the proper way to express ones deepest appreciation for bringing themsleves or their child to this wonderful stage in life.

A rebbi teaching your child Torah is also a mitzvah, yet you need to pay him. The halacha is to pay the going rate for a shadchan, rebbi, or gardener.

aries:

1. you discussed halacha i answered halacha.Perhaps in your community that is the prevailing custom and as such that’s what the rabbi said, in which case it is correct, but it is NOT a standard for all communities. If one gives a electrician a gift have they fulfulled their obligation to pay? similarly with shadchanus. In a coomunity where one gives a gift to a electrician instead of paying a fee then one can do so, but that’s certainly NOT standard custom. (you make it sound like i’m saying some novel chiddush as if i make myself out to be some expert. I’m simply relating codified halacha.)

2. I am syaing that shulchan aruch and commentaries compare shadchanus to other service providers and the rules and regulations governing compensation are the same. I would think that your LOR is familiar with this.

2. Regarding omens: i am not discounting that reality, (in fact i would argue that giving a gift that doesn’t satisfy the shadchan’s fair and just expectations, does little to allevite the potential problem you aluded, irregardless of if the gift is given before or after the wedding.

3. please provide for the cr some evidence where local custom was to pay shadchabnus at or shortly after the weeding, the family did that, and they attributed problems down the line to the fact that the followed the local coustom (and halacha) and gave proper and appreciated shadchnaus at or after the chassuna.I dare say you will NOT be able to come up with such evidence.

4. regarding specific situations as to who is the shadchan the person who suggested the name, encouraged, was the go between etc. these are all fairly common halachic questions and for the most part the vast majority of situations have already been dealt with by poskim.

(The follwoing is my understanding of halacha but i may very well be incoorect, and with all such matters they should be presented to a competent authority in the field, (not necessarity any LOR, much like one wouldn’t ask a complicated medical halacha shayla to a LOR but to a expert in that field)

A general rule of thumb is that halacha considers there to be 3 parts for the shidduch.

a. suggesting the name in the manner that directly brings about intrest for the party to proceed with the shidduch. Irrelevant if it is the first person or 10th person to mention the name (maschil is the halachic term)

b. Being the go between from when both sides prvoide the yesses throught the dating process.

c. being the go between as it nears completion and facilitating closing the deal (gomer).

each one of these roles deserves 1/3 of the shadchanus. If standard shadchanus was 1500 from one side then role a is 500 role b 500 and role c is 500. if one person played two roles but not the third then they would receive 1000.

if two people together combined to play one of the roles, then the portion for that role is split. people who give good advice, information etc are not halachically entitlted to the compensation that is reserved for the shadchanim. Should one decide to give them some comepnesation it should NOT come out of the sum that is customrarirly given to the shadchan.

5. shadchanus in halacha is considered in the field of “sarsur” borkers, and the guidleines for compensation follow those of people who provide the servie such as brokers.

any question you have regarding shadcnim (effort involved, etc should be addressed to all forms of brokers). one more note: the simply idea that someone considers themselves a shadcan becasue they feel they deserve credit does not in any way have create any halachic obligation. halchic obligation depends on the actual role that was played and how halacha views that role, personal feelings aside.

This is my understanding for what it’s worth.

here is article that broaches the topic…

http://www.businesshalacha.com/articles/will-real-shadchan

passfan: probably correct based on the priciple of hamotzi meichabeir alav harryah. However in such instances perhaps one should be concerned about someone having bad feelings (that may be somewhat justified) and thus running into the issues down the road that aries refers to.

“What about the Sefardi community, is it the same?”

It is well known that the Sefardi community does not pat Shadchanus at all. Not even the very frum ones- they just don’t!

AZ, how would you explain the Sefardi take on paying a shadchan? You have clearly passed judgement that $1 is not sufficient payment (which obviously is a token payment just to be yotzeh), so how would you explain a community norm NOT paying the shadchun going against the Shulchan Aruch and all your other explanations???

hello99-wow, that’s quite a approval!

aries: very simple, if the community minhag is NOT to pay, then there is (i believe) no obligaton to pay and that is perfectly in line with everything the shulchan aruch says. I would just make sure that one is 100% sure that such is the community minhag. You might do well to double check with a prominent posek in that community. This is the same as if a community had a widespread custom that plumbers/tutors etc do work for free. If that is the reality, that is the halahca. And unless the service provider clearly stated otherwise at the onset, the beneficiary would not be obligated to pay anything.

If there is a community that has the widespread custom to give $1 then that is the halachic obligation.

HOWEVER if a community has a widespread custom to give shadchanus, then one can NOT obsolve their halachic obligation by giving a token $1 and claim, i “gave” shadchanus. Just the same as one who hires a plumber where the going rate is 150 for a house call, they can’t say here’s a dollar, i’ve fullfulled my obligation to pay. They must research and see what the “going rate or range is, and compensate in such a fashion.

passfan: these are all legitimate questions that need to be addressed to a competent halachic authority familiar with this specific area of halacha. Might i suggest not simply asking ones LOR. These are detailed choshen mishpat shaylos and need to be treated as such.

I think we all agree this is not the forum (and I am most definately NOT qualified) to answer such detailed questions.

All I would like to accomplish is to educate that your very valid questions are no different when relating to shadcnim as they would be to a private math tutor, a plumber, electrician or any service provider or broker who does a job without having a pre-arranged agreed upon fee.

These things happen every day (like a babysitter for example), and they need to presented to a qualified authority who is familiar in this area of halacha.

Aries: have you changed your opinion on the issue

1000 from each side. I don’t agree that it ever went up past that.

W