A Shabbos Desecrator Saying Vayechulu With the Congregation

“The Wolf

The Wolf”

always knew he was a bit schizo 😛

unless it was a tanis chalom. to op- be miyached eidim. exclude the bad guys. and chazon ish says its ok with one.

Wolf, we stand because it’s like Kedusha, and the Chumra of having to have 2+ people really makes very little sense. For starters, it can’t be Eidus. By definition it’s said at night.

So, you are concerned about “Lifnei Iver” but you are ok with being a Sabbath desecrator. Very very strange…

Should I say vayichulu if I’m davening in the same minyan as my father and/or brother?

It’s a ridiculous Chumra. In fact, being Makpid on this Chumra should be an issue of looking like a Beis Din when it’s not because you can’t give Eidus at night.

Wolf: From the tone in your intial comment opening this thread there is no indication of your feeling of “it pains me terribly that that’s the way I am”. And I assumed (my fault) that “you were ok with it”.

From the tone in your last response I feel anger.

I apologize to you. It wasn’t my intention to hurt you in any way. Please be mochel me.

If I recall correctly, Wolf got fed up with some of the more right-wing/Chareidi posters here who were spewing Naarishkeit and platitudes themselves without actually thinking about what they said or the situation and has decided to take it out on the CR in a satirical manner.

Bezalel, I think that’s the point of pretending it’s sort of an Eidus. We do know firsthand that HKBH created the world, even if we didn’t physically see it ourselves.

Adorable: Wolf is fine and quite a frum Jew. This is his form of satire (even though he will reply to this to deny it).

Wolf:

Look at the Chazon Ish on that Mishnah Berurah and you will see that no one agrees that there is an issue of eidus here only edah. Therefore, you can say it:)

What are you sad about (on Shabbos or whenever)?

We do know firsthand that HKBH created the world, even if we didn’t physically see it ourselves.

Having evidence is not the same thing as firsthand knowledge.

Wolf, look there in Siman 288. If being sad makes you feel better then maybe it’s okay. Also, being sad wouldn’t make you a Mechalel Shabbos. You would be, at worst, Mevatel an Asei D’rabannan of Oneg.

WolfishMusings,

It is forbidden to have certain bodily functions occur while wearing tefillin… to the point that if a person has a GI ailment which makes it impossible to control the body in that manner, he is exempt from tefillin.

Now, if I heaven forbid had a chronic GI issue which prevented me from wearing tefillin, should I take myself to the doctor and get the illness treated, or should I come onto the CR and declare publicly that I’m a sinner because I don’t lay tefillin?

In other words, if your sadness is truly bothering you as you claim, and you feel distress at not being able to follow the halacha as you see it, shouldn’t you go and be seen by a health professional, rather than coming to the CR to make halacha look heartless, CV”S?

Wolf: I believe Rav Schachter has mentioned that 4 and 5 shouldn’t be a problem. Those Gezeiros apply only for other people. If a Mechalel Shabbos B’farhesia himself makes food that he knows it Kosher (and touches wine that he knows he wasn’t Menasech) then he himself (and his immediate family, I think Rav Schachter said) are perfectly allowed to rely on themselves.

WolfishMusings,

[in response to popa_bar_abba:] Why is it so difficult to believe that, at the very least, I truly believe this?

Because you’re smarter than this.

I ended up speaking with someone about this situation.

<rant>

Who, mosherose?

I’m not sure why your game bothers me so much. Maybe it’s because, in some areas (as far as I can determine through your posts), we think in similar ways. You seem to care about your beliefs being logically consistent and despise anti-intellectualism or fallacies. Yet in threads like this, your arguments are rife with blatant fallacies, including (in just this thread alone):

Sweeping generalizations (a dicto simpliciter ad dictum secundum quid – you ignore universally acceptable exceptions to rules). For example, if state law said, “entering into a private domicile without consent of the owner is illegal”, I can see you writing an OP saying “I deserve to go to jail because I entered into someone’s house without permission yesterday…by the way, I’m an EMT.” The funniest example of your use of this fallacy is your, “I’m a sinner because I talk during leining (I’m the ba’al koreh)” shtick. This mechalel Shabbos one’s not so funny, however, because it can add stress or misery to a person who is depressed, doesn’t see the fallacy in your argument, and might take you seriously.

Appeal to anonymous authority – “I ended up speaking with someone about this situation”, and somehow this random person becomes the final word, ignoring what everyone else said on this thread. Also apparent is that you likely did not give this person all of the relevant information, which is not in the spirit of ????????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????????

False dilemmas – either you’re never sad on Shabbos, or you are a mechalel Shabbos who cannot cook for other Jews or handle wine, or say vayechulu with the tzibbur. No different than saying that someone either supports all of the president’s policies, or he is a traitor.

So, as popa_bar_abba asked, what is behind your drive to take every generalization, apply it rigidly or absurdly to your personal situation to come up with faux aveiros (which is not how a rav would operate IRL), and then parade your “shame” publically in the CR? Are you trying to bait extreme posters like mosherose to give crazy responses so you can prove their ignorance or have fodder for your blog? Are you trying to make halacha and/or Orthodox Jews look bad? I can’t understand it. But really, given how much knowledge you obviously have of Jewish law and tradition, I can’t possibly accept that you are being serious with this.

</rant>

Wolf:

Are you posting truly to discuss eidus, or are you asking for help with your sadness? Personally, I am finding that cultivating hakaras hatov as frequently as possible to be a good antidote. Also, I can’t believe that Hashem would create some of us to be more prone to sadness and then would punish us for not always overcoming it, Shabbos or anyday. I find it more helpful to focus on Avinu rather than Malkenu. I’m already good enough at self-flagellation. I don’t think that Hashem would be pleased with my strengthening it.

WolfishMusings,

Thank you for responding.

Your example of an EMT (by the way, did you know that I used to be an EMT?) is not really applicable[…]

Didn’t know that… when I first typed the response I put policeman, but changed it to EMT to avoid the complications of a warrant, etc.

I’m not aware of anything that says that one is allowed to be sad on Shabbos just for sake of being sad.

That’s not the issue. If I tripped on Shabbos and fell against a wall with a light switch and accidentally turned the light on, am I a mechalel Shabbos? Oops, didn’t mean to do that… now I can’t say vayechulu with the tzibbur next Shabbos? No, because the melacha was involuntary. A mechalel Shabbos, on the other hand, does his aveiros on purpose. You, however, wrote in your response to kako above:

It is what I am, and it pains me terribly that that’s the way I am, but I am certainly not “ok” with it.

This indicates that your sadness is involuntary, which does NOT make you a mechalel Shabbos. It’s not like you wear torn clothes, fast, and wail in public on Shabbos [at least, I’m assuming you don’t!]. Involuntary sadness that affects your ability to accomplish what you want to is called depression, and if it is upsetting you this much, you should really speak to someone you trust, rather than publicly beating yourself up on the CR. I am affected emotionally by the change of seasons (likely due to the lack of sunlight), and sometimes when it’s really bad, I feel like I’m defective… like some grooves were dug into my brain that cause irrational sadness that other people don’t have. Because intellectually I know I don’t have anything to be sad about, yet I’m sad anyway. Then to make matters worse, my yetzer hara comes and tells me that I’m sinning, reminding me of the admonishment of a husband and father to not be melancholy, and so on top of sad, I feel like a bad person. That’s a trick that the yetzer hara plays, because if I feel like a sinner, then I stay sad. Now that I understand more about the physical causes of my feelings, my wife kicks me outside with my toddler in a stroller when there’s a lot of sunshine. I also try to take a walk during the day outside of the office. The extra sun exposure and exercise help with the sadness.

Any judgements I make apply to myself and myself only.

Are you saying that you’re different, somehow, from other Jews? A tzaddik who’s held to a higher standard? Again, I think this is possibly a trick of the yetzer hara.

I don’t know why you would assume that I didn’t give the person I spoke with the complete, unadulterated truth. I assure you that that’s not the case.

You told this person that you have had problems with feeling sad occasionally on Shabbos, even though you don’t want to be sad, and would like help to not feel sad, and s/he replied that you’re a sinner and should avoid saying vayechulu on Shabbos?? Sounds nuts to me.

Nonetheless, I stand by his ruling, as one does not go “p’sak shopping.”

You have not said that this person is your rav. I’d recommend getting rulings from your rav, and only after giving a full and accurate picture of your issue (e.g., not just saying, “R’ X, in theory, is someone who consistently violates a Shabbos prohibition in the S”A considered a mechalel Shabbos?” and so on).

No. You’ll notice that my blogging activity has dropped off considerably in the past year.

I have not read your blog enough to know much about your posting habits, but I have read enough to know that there you criticize what you see as craziness, and here you accept craziness and apply it to yourself.

4. In addition, a M’challel Shabbos causes any (non-M’vushal) wine he touches to become forbidden. As a result, I am not allowed to drink (non-M’vushal) wine, since the very act of picking it up causes it to become forbidden.

This reminds me of when I was at a presentation on the halachos of being mafrish terumah and maaser, and the presenter was saying how if you don’t have a siddur, you can say, “I am being mafrish like it says to in the Artscroll siddur.” But, he quoted from someone that if you do that when you have a siddur, then you are an am haaretz.

So I wondered, if you are an am haaretz, then your food is d’mai. So then you still can’t eat it.