college='OTD'

If being a doctor or lawyer is looked down upon in the Yiddishe Velt, then RAMBAM must be a real pariah, and ALL the members of the Sanhedrin, and every DAYAN in a Beis Din, should be censured for serving in the court system.

Having a college degree is no guarantee of a job, but NOT having one is almost CERTAIN to guarantee a much more difficult time in finding and making a decent parnassah today. Even our greatest Rabbanim held jobs in ancient times. R’ Yochanan was a shoemaker. R’Yehuda Hanasi ran businesses. RAMBAM was a doctor, and not even in E”Y. Many of our meforshim were Sofrim, poets, translators, advisors to kings and other heads of state.

In today’s world, we have to ensure that our children are educated, so that they can compete in the world twenty, thirty, forty years down the line. If no one of this generation of young people is earning a living, who will provide for THEIR children? Education at least gives them an edge over the non-educated.Not everyone’s father owns a business for them to fall into.

And college does not in and of itself = OTD. That is just nonsense. There are plenty of VERY frum people male and female who go to college. One simply has to used discretion and seichel when deciding where to go.

First of all, this conversation can go a few different ways based on a few different factors.

First, you dont state if you are male or female.

Second, you dont really give much detail as to why your parents are opposed to the idea.

Third, are they concerned that higher education is going to A: bring down the family name? B: make you unattractive to shadchanim C: fill your head with ideas that will make you want to escape from the community.

Also, you are correct that the “yeshivisha world” does look down on professionals in some cases. But then, when they need a professional, they tend to look for some one heimish. It’s quite a contradiciton, they would never allow their children to be professionals, but when they need one, they prefer one of their own kind.

Dont let this discourage you. Ultimatley it is your life and there are many shining examples of religious doctors,lawyers,accountants,stock brokers, and business owners. Dont let yourself be pushed into a marriage and a lifestyle with a self perpetuating cycle of poverty that seems to be pushed as the only option.

Who cares what others think. You do what you feel is right, Torahdik & Yashar, and if others don’t like it, we will see who is correct after 120.

BT: I don’t have an opinion about your situation since there are too many unknowns, but a few thoughts: Before a person commits to going to college they should have a realistic idea of what college will demand of them. Doctors/Lawyers spend a minimum of seven years in college before they can actually practice and begin to earn money. A lot of time in the first 4 years is spent learning useless subjects that are required for the degree. If during those seven years your life develops in other ways so that your time is occupied by marriage, job, learning, etc. it may become difficult to keep up with the demands of college. And finally, in listening to some of the debates going on regarding the burden of student loans that many graduates carry, it has been mentioned that today’s marketplace doesn’t necessarily demand a college degree anymore, especially in certain areas. As an example I heard that among some notable college dropouts were Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg.

“we will see who is correct after 120.”

You probably shouldn’t throw the dice and hope to find out if you were right or not after 120.

@Zahvasdad,

It’s more a reference to some of the “narishkeit” like civics, social studies, history (not jewish history though) sociology and classic literature.

Schools treat these subjects like an afterthought then wonder why kids SAT and ACT scores dont come close to their public school counterparts. Or why they have no respect for the law or society around them.

It’s taught more in the vein of “here are some subjects that you need to know a little bit about so you can get accepted to some degree mill and hock your way into some graduate program or law school”

Frightening to think about what’s going to happen when the well of rich grandparents runs dry.

@EzratHashem,

Those people were extremly successful but for every one of them, there are a million people stuck in a dead end job (if they even have a job) with no hope of ever improving their situation.

It is true that becoming a Doctor or Lawyer can be a long and costly process but those are not the only two professional jobs that can be very lucrative. A college degree might not be worth what it once was but it is still worth every penny (in most cases, people with degrees in Medival Irish Poetry are probably not in too high a demand) Just a quick browsing of Careerbuilder or Monster and you will see that a lot of mid level or even entry level jobs require a 4 year degree.

@ZahavasDad,

I agree with you!

I was just summerizing the “typical” point of view of those subjects.

I dont know you Mr. or Ms. OP. I dont know your parents. From the limited information shared, it would seem that your parents are not overly concerned with you and your shidduch prospects, but their image in the community as parents of a college student and how it may affect them and their social standing.

It is hard for your parents to accept the new realities of life.

I think step number one when you, as an adult, are at odds with your parents is to seek out Daas Torah. College is not a must, but it is definitely a lot harder to find a job without it. There are also many professions which require certificate programs rather than 4 year college. If your parents can’t or won’t foot the bill you would have to take out loans.

Their one hope and nachas is to see you married off. This is also an issue about which to seek out Daas Torah. Boys and girls or being pushed into dating far too young. You need to be able to establish a form of parnassah, and perhaps a bit of savings, first. That said, once you are married it will be easier to qualify for financial assitance as you will be able to file as independant of your parents. BUT going to school and having babies don’t really work too well together, especially if you need to work to put food on the table. It is easier if you are the husband, but still hard.

And as to College=OTD that is really not true. Although there are many parents who do believe it, (and menahelim and roshei yeshiva that perpetuate it) you will find few “older singles” who haven’t moved on to receive some form of formal higher education. Either as something to do with their times, or as a means to further their careers. Being a copy girl or preschool assistant for 10K a year is not very fulfilling after a couple of years.

EzratHashem: Are you talking about the article,”Will Dropouts Save America” by Michael Ellsberg?

I just came up with this idea. If your parents don’t think that you need schooling because all parnassah comes from Hashem. Then you should not have to try to get married, not worry about it, because that comes from Hashem also. Bitachon is Bitachon. If you have it one place, you should have it in another. In reality, we need to put in our histadlut.

This is the 2nd thread where I’ve seen a poster that appears blank. What gives?

Cleverjewishpun, what do you mean by “the hardline/extreme positions” of the Rambam?

EzratHaShem, the example of the rich drop-outs is not a good example. You can just hope to somehow strike it rich.

whats your shailah? Parents nowadays are always wrong, and todays generation is way more experienced and knowledgable then their elders. fife fife fife. the rabbanim are out to lunch, too.

I really think this argument is moot, since there are plenty of ways to get a degree that the majority of the yeshivish world acknowledges.

And even if you DO go to a secular college, while doing so could theoretically drive you off the derech, the act itself can’t really be defined as such. Some MAY perceive it as not yeshivish/not done, but only someone really extreme would condemn a person as “OTD.” I know plenty of people who are in this situation, and B”H their Yiddishkeit is holding up nicely.

I’m not condoning this, of course. I just don’t think people should be so quick do condemn it.

HIE: In all fairness, I don’t think BTGuy indicated that he AGREED with that sentiment.

The notion of what is “yeshivish” is not written in stone and may change over time. Many parents in their 50s and 60s did go to college and did have professional careers. Today, many are supporting their children who are not going to college, and have limited career prospects. Aren’t those working parents to be admired and respected? Perhaps, the pendulum will swing will swing back to the other side in the future, and an education and career will be considered “yeshivish.”