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What makes someone be considered as “Off the Derech”.
They are a Mechallel Shabbos.
Just to start off by saying a bum and off the derech are two separate things but the actual meaning is someone who strays from the path of their father being mechalel shabbos true is a sign but that’s not all it can be in general anything that his parents and grandparents didn’t do
if they are women, wear pants and hang out with men. If men, don’t wear yarmulkes and hang out with women. This is just my guess, I could be wrong.
Englishman – Oh really – only that?
What about s/o who keeps Shabbos and eats Treif?
They are a Mechallel Shabbos.
What about those (like myself) who are mechallel Shabbos despite not wanting to do so. Are we off the derech?
The Wolf
People who cut themselves off from the jewish community
Not only do they not keep shabbos, kosher etc, They marry non-jews and move to places where there arent any jews or very few of them.
Many people who ive met that are “OTD” want some connection to judaism so there is hope for them, but then there are others who seem to totally cut themselves off , its much harder to do teshuva when you move outside NY (especially down south) marry a non-jew and have kids
No. If people want to be Mecallel Shabbos, that is off the derech.
What about those (like myself) who are mechallel Shabbos despite not wanting to do so. Are we off the derech?
If you consider leining-talkers OTD, then yes, you are OTD.
If you consider leining-talkers OTD, then yes, you are OTD.
That has nothing to do with chillul Shabbos.
The Wolf
Interesting question- may I add the below instances, which B”H apply only to a very small percentage of the frum community, but….)
What about:
those who keep Shabbos and break the law or
those who keep Shabbos and commit other acts that bring about Chilul Hashem or
those who keep Shabbos and are molesters, or
those who keep Shabbos and cheat on their spouses, or
those who keep Shabbos and cause pain to others,
and the list goes on…
are they “on the Derech” or “off the Derech”?
Wolf, are you talking about generating electrical current in your brain and nerves?
‘labels’ are used in fashion houses. In Yiddishkyte we attempt to bring this onto a human level. We are so quick to label, judge and make sure we have indeed used the appropriate category to associate
this individual’s list of negatives. Amazing that the Shoifet elyon has just lost this job. Our job is to serve with H-shem with all of our might and be positive. How about we all make this attempt, hey just after Yom Kippur people, and try to encourage people, stop with this holy than thou attitude because quite frankly in case anyone forgot why the second bais hamikdosh was destroyed, this is your reminder.
Ivdu es H-shem besimcho!!!
ofcourse-interesting points to ponder. never thought of it that way
“when you move outside NY (especially down south)”
There are some very nice orthodox communities “Down South” by the way
What makes someone be considered as “Off the Derech”.
Someone who is content to be stagnant, and not grow in Avodas Hashem. They are off the path of Avodas Hashem, as someone who is not an Oleh must be a Yored.
Someone who wants to grow, even if they are currently low, is an Oleh and “on the Derech”, and vice versa.
I know there are communities down south. I dont mean people who move to places like Atlanta, or South Florida , places that have jewish communities
I mean people who move to places where the locals have never seen a jew and think they all have horns.
OTD is a silly term people use to define those who are becoming not frum. Why not just say “not Shomer Halacha” (meaning all of Halacha; both the Mechalel Shabbos and the Ganav are not Shomer Halacha)?
just wondering why people care what the definition means exactly? its a shame that people are all worried about other peoples trials in life and its ignorant to say that moving out of the ny area would be a qualification for that
several definitions. not keeping shabbos because a kid is rebelling can be a mumar lehachis. not keeping shabbos because he doesnt see the point and cant be bothered is a mumar lteavon. 2 very different problems. someone who keeps shabbos however has no feeling for yahadus and whose emuna is seriously lacking is another form of OTD because he has no reason to be frum at all (orthoprax…but not in quite the same way). then you have your kids who were just poorly influenced.
so classifying OTD, you see, is very difficult because to lump every single one of thsoe groups listed and teh countless other groups into one broad term of OTD would be a terrible misrepresentation of exactly what is going on with those kids.
chiullul shabbos, also, is a terrible way of classifying it because laav davka. suppose he keeps shabbos because hes on display but eats treif…bottom line you cant classify OTD. you know it when you see it…and when you do you spend time with the person, figure out their reasons, and do what you can to help them.
i know everyone is so used to classifying everything for expediency…but with some things its just wrong. this is one of them.
The Holy Chafetz Chaim says one who is mechalel Shabbos has, in effect, pulled down the sign of his Yiddishkeit.
Everyones answer is right
zahavasdad, I disagree with you. Not everyone has a choice of where they end up living. You can be the only Jewish family in town and still be “ON the derech”. It depends on the kind of life that you and your family wish to live. It will be a lot more difficult to be frum in a small town than it is in New York, but it can be done. I know people who have done it and they have to be given a lot of credit. When you can’t swing into the local grocer and pick up a kosher chicken or some hummus but must plan months ahead and order frozen meat, you have to be very devoted. A lot of frum people from big cities might stumble in a small town yet others manage very well.
minyan gal, I completely agree with everything you said. Great post!
MG and MP, I was not referring to people who live out of town and want to be frum.
I was referring to people who move out of town to divorce themselves from anything jewish.
If you are going OTD and stay near your friends , family etc even if you go, you still have some pull back, but if you totally divorce yourself from your friends and family and anything jewish (even running into a Hasid on the Subway) you are probably gone forever
Wolf, are you talking about generating electrical current in your brain and nerves?
No. I’m referring to the halacha that one is not allowed to be sad on Shabbos. I violate that halacha far more often than not. That makes me a mechallel Shabbos b’farhesia (since I’m terrible at hiding my feelings), even though I don’t want to be so.
The Wolf
Forever is a long time. Hashem’s arm reaches people even in remote locations.
people who dont learn in kollel.
people who dont learn in kollel.
Ah… so all my kids’ rabbeim and their menahels were off the derech because they taught kids instead of learning in kollel. Thanks for pointing that out to me Toi.
The Wolf
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