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I’ve heard that there are some communitys that don’t permit woman to drive. anyone know what the mekor is?
It’s about tsinus. When you’re on the road, accidents, being stuck, filling up on gas etc, it’s lots of interaction with males ..
Don’t know the mekor .. Rabbi Wosner and the chassidic rabbonim don’t allow it..
Various rabbonim shlit”a don’t allow it in their community. Especially in Eretz Yisroel, but in the U.S. as well.
It’s not a lack of understanding of halacha at all IMHO but some rebbeim made ????? in this area and in others as well.
Charlie – if the makor is from Saudi Arabia then how come Syrians and other middle eastern Jews don’t prohibit women from driving?
Women in chassidishe communities like Belz, Satmar, Viznitz, Skver, Bobov and Pupa generally do not drive.
As far as I know, the women and girls are NOT told that driving is a Tznius issue, just that it was never “oongenimen” (accepted) or “eingefirt” (instituted/introduced) by them. It seems to be a minhag that they uphold because “my mother din’t drive and her mother didn’t either….”
“Saudi Arabia. It is chukat hagoyim”
A particularly disgusting remark to make about gedolim who know halacha.
The YCT shiurim are affecting your common sense. Chukas hagoyim is celebrating their holidays, such as Thanksgiving, not refinements in kedusha. Chumras in tznius are reccomended by Rashi.
It’s because of the seat belt.
wy wife drives, my daughter drives, i never even considered whether they should or not, its pashut that they should drive.
nevertheless if women driving is a problem in other frum communities, for whatever reason, well i certainly respect them for that.
now many posts have been deleted from this thread, most from the same people that cry tolerance and achdus, and complain about the frum who denigrate their lifestyles. these same posters see nothing wrong with bitterly criticizing those more frum than them, how they are so foolish, ridiculous, a throwback from outdated times, wanting to be holier than thou, discrimination against women, pushing chumras down everyone elses throat, etc.
I’ve noticed the same thing Mod 80. Thanks for pointing out the hypocrisy.
Mod-80, good point!
When driving first began, in my parents generation, the majority of drivers were men. My mother and some of my friends mother’s didn’t drive. Not for tznius reasons, but it was a man’s role.
I do drive, but in trying to explain to others, I say, can you imagine a woman driving a large truck, no, that’s not refined or it’s not a woman’s role. It’s a more agressive, assertive or public role. In communities with a higher standard of tznius in many areas, this feeling remains that a woman driving is not the proper role for a woman – too much in the public eye, and in certain ways too agressive.
Although I drive here in the US, I would not drive in communities in Eretz Yisroel that have that standard as it is not respectful. You can do things differently and yet admire others for their higher standard and not have to put them down.
As far as I know, the women and girls are NOT told that driving is a Tznius issue, just that it was never “oongenimen” (accepted) or “eingefirt” (instituted/introduced) by them. It seems to be a minhag that they uphold because “my mother din’t drive and her mother didn’t either….”
I like this answer. Chassidim in general try to be/live like it was in the Alter Heim (see: Straimels), and a woman was never the Ba’al Agalah in any of the Chassidishe Maissim (LOL), nor did they drive wagons in any case. The same position today would be the driver of the auto.
If you really want to know, I would suggest asking MSseeker (a Chassidish Lady), who could probably help you.
The Shevet Halevi (I believe 1:12 but am nowhere near positive) cites the fact that women drive as one of the 4 main reasons there are so many fatal accidents on the road. (I am unclear if this is because he holds it is Assur or if he thinks/has statistics that women cause more fatal accidents.)
Obviously the rabbanim/rabbeim who make such rules are not dumb or ignorant. They are well aware that it doesn’t say in Shulchan Aruch that women may not drive. It is a decision they make based on the culture they live in, and that’s something which many of you pretentious, holier-than-thou, anonymous posters have no inkling of understanding in. Get a life, and start practicing the tolerance you preach.
One question I have about women not driving is that I find it funny that say you go to Macy’s or Lord and Taylor and find the chassidish women shopping and then you have the husbadn stuck in the store for hours doing nothing because he had to drive his wife.
One question I have about women not driving is that I find it funny that say you go to Macy’s or Lord and Taylor and find the chassidish women shopping and then you have the husbadn stuck in the store for hours doing nothing because he had to drive his wife.
They can take mass transit, or buses. For example (IIRC), there is a Chassidish bus that goes from Kiryas Yoel to the local outlet mall often.
collegegrad, Many of them use taxis, or have their husband drop them off and pick them us afterwards. And others aren’t so practical. Or maybe they want their husband’s input on what they’re buying. Or he might be taking care of the kids while she shops. Whatever. Not my problem.
Kiryas Yoel is right next to a big mall (Woodbury Commons).
collegegrad, isn’t it nice though that he spends the day with his wife? Not a bad concept at all. If it works for them, who are we to complain?
When I asked my Chassidish friends about it, they said that its more about where you can get and being able to get around cuz that can be a lead to not tznius things. I think that before it was a problem of tznuis cuz of the way they cars were but I never looked into that.
Tell me where, I think i’ll move there.
There is a T’shuvah in the Shevet Halevi which strongly implies that he holds women are not permitted to drive.
Sam2
Can you give the source specifically?
AYC: I tried to before but the mods deleted it. I believe it’s 1:12 but I could be wrong on the volume number. I’m 95% positive that the T’shuvah is between Simanim 7-12 in whatever volume it is though. I saw it a long time ago.
“that can be a lead to not tznius things”
If your goal is to go to places where you can see and do non-tzniut things, you don’t need to drive, at least if you are in NYC.
“The YCT shiurim are affecting your common sense.”
Actually, I rarely attend YCT shiurim; they are held during the day and I have a day job, and I have no connection to YCT. I do attend Rabbi Dov Linzer’s daf yomi shiur but that is not a YCT shiur. They can be accessed by anyone with a good internet connection.
There is a T’shuvah in the Shevet Halevi which strongly implies that he holds women are not permitted to drive. “
Were women permitted to drive wagons in the old days?
i dont understand. in communities where this is the accepted way of life the women are perfectly hapy; thyre not picketing in the streets to have people more modern then them liberabte them from their shakles. if people are content with theyre positions on certain issues, why do you have to enlighten them?? because YOU believe that your way is the only way. ironic; thats exactly what you accuse the kollel/yeshivaleit of doing
As far as I know, the women and girls are NOT told that driving is a Tznius issue, just that it was never “oongenimen” (accepted) or “eingefirt” (instituted/introduced) by them. It seems to be a minhag that they uphold because “my mother din’t drive and her mother didn’t either….”
I was told flat out that the reason is it not considered tzniusdik for women is that driving motions involving the moving of the legs from pedal to brake, can potentially incite improper thoughts in the women. It may be so, but try telling that to the mothers driving screaming kids in a carpool.
Oomis, wouldn’t that be a worse problem for men?
oomis, let’s disregard for a moment my personal opinion of that “reason” (namely that it is absurd) and focus on a proof that it isn’t the reason. Cars can be modified to operate by hand controls. Did you know that FDR drove such a car?
It seems to be a minhag that they uphold because “my mother din’t drive and her mother didn’t either….
My ancestors didnt use electricity or phones either
I’ve thought long and hard about it in my day, and I’ve come to this conclusion:
There’s the tznius factor, of course, as others have pointed out, but it’s a misconception that chassidim have singled out women in this respect. Driving is frowned upon, period. It’s perceived to be dangerous physically and spiritually; if you’d think twice before driving somewhere, you’d think ten times before taking a taxi there. A driving boy is considered like a working boy; he can forget about a good shidduch. Shaina yidden, ????????? ????????? (sorry, defies translation) and many rebbishe einiklach, wouldn’t be caught dead driving. I suspect it would be assered for everyone, if possible, but that would be a ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??. So working men drive because they have to, and many non-working married men who need a car for their ego drive because it’s already acceptable for their age and station. Still, the ideal is to not drive, for everyone, not just women.
The prob. is that the men hav2 drive for Parnasa… Otherwise I would highly think that only women should be driving!
First of all, like gavra1_at_work wrote about shopping in malls.
And 2’nd, since we dont run the street, and every non jewish girl or women is driving todays days and even if not we hav2 focus on the roads where there’s alot of them. I think for Shmiras Einayim the men shouldn’t be driving.
I have afew friends that didn’t take license only for Shmiras Einayim reasons…
wouldn’t be caught dead driving
Not to belittle your comment in any way, but I would hope there is no one dead behind the wheel.
That reminds me of the guy who said he would rather die peacefully in his sleep like his grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.
And about your comment about not driving, that’s all great if u live in Brooklyn where u have a shul, school, kosher supermarket, etc all within a block of where you live. If you live in “the suburbs” it just isn’t practical not to drive.
It would seem to me you could do alot more arveros with a Phone than you could with a car
i have heard that some chassidish women who moved from bp to monsey and were not allowed to drive in bp were allowed to im monsey. I live in a community were most women dont drive and they have no problem with it they say it makes their lives eaiser if they cant drive they cant do most of the erends so they hubby has to do and the food shopping. and my the way in checking u out before u get into a school in the “chassidish world” thats one of the top 10 questions they ask does the mother drive
if you follow that the women belongs in the house and she is the piller of the house like in the times of the torah ..then it all makes sense
Both the Shulchan Aruch (73:1) and Rambam say a woman shouldn’t leave the house too much. I would imagine this ties into the reason of them not driving.
My ancestors didn’t have cell phones or computers.
It’s a figure of speech, kapusta.
I think for tznius reasons, ONLY women should drive:
1. There is so much pritzus in the world that one has to look at if he is driving. Better for a woman to look at it while driving than a man.
2. Issur of bitul Torah- how can a man learn from his Gemara while trying to drive?
3. Much more tznius for a woman to drive her own car then to be out in public transportation.
women should know how to do everything.
drive, swim, ride a bike, roller skate, ice skate. manage a checkbook etc
The Shevet HaLevi is 4:1:2. He writes that driving facilitates exposure, which is the opposite of ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????. See also 7:11
Hello: Is 7:11 the one that I was thinking of that got modded when I tried to say what it said? I knew it was between 7-12. Oh well…
So a working boy can forget about a good shidduch. Ouch. That hurt.
7:11 is a list of causes for recent traffic accidents, he mentions it in 4:1:2 as well.
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