- This topic has 53 replies, 29 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Hey, I know I haven’t been on here in a while but I came across a very common notion in our community, which I think is worth being discussed.
Anyway, they just came back from the Ice Cream store and relayed to me that the kids were Blatantly Staring at them- with NO shame- up n down up n down…
And they’re not the only one- I’m from Flatbush and they do the same body scan as well- and make comments amongst their peers.
Parents should open they’re kids to accept others- no matter where they are from, no matter what they look like- even goyim. No one is saying be friends with them- be c’mon be menshlach! And al achas kama V;kama to Jews.
So, tell me, what do YOU think?
If you saw two Saudi women in a full hijab, niqab and abaya walk into Amnon’s Pizza on 13th, you wouldn’t do a double-take?
First off red welcome back, this bothers me also so many times when i am away from home for shabbos i will be in a shul and maybe my dress isnt the same mode of most people in that community ( i dont wear a black hat) or maybe because im single and older and they see i dont wear a tallis whatever it is the kids take notice of me and stare at me it is extremely annoying and the fathers in shul dont pay any attention to what their kids are doing. If you stare back at them they will look away for a moment and then continue to stare with their mouths agape.
Chein, I may be wrong, but that seems to have little to do with what RedNails was referring to.
Where I live, (very much “out of town”), most people don’t stare down other people. It is common to have people dressing differently from each other, so it’s not at all a big deal. But from what you’ve described, RedNails, it seems to be a bit of a problem in your areas. Or, maybe it’s just a small percentage..maybe most people don’t do that.
And welcome back, RedNails!
Rabbi Elchonon Wassermen zt”l would never stare at someone in the face(when talking), this is based on Igros Ramban, in which he adjures his son, not to look at someone whilst they are talking as its not humble.
It also says ‘k’mayim panim al hapanim (Mishlie)as water reflects so does the face. Therefore it is good to look at people whilst talking to them.
Perhaps Ramban and Rabbi Elchonon Wassermen were Litvaks who don’t look at people when they speak.
Chassidishe Rebba (who Kabbalistaically face read people) do look at people, also fuffiling the verse ‘your eyes should see your teacher (Isaiah)-in which the Talmud adjures people to look at the Rebba when they speak.
I remember 32 yrs ago, @ the levaya of the Satmar Rebba ZT’L, being stared @ by the children so much so that I felt like they thought I was a shiksa. I had my 6 mo. old son in a stroller. my DH was by the men, of course; he’s Chassidish, so no problems for him. :/
(The Satmar Rebba,ZT’L, put my husband’s tefillin on him for the first time.)
I’ve been stared at my whole life. As a kid, adult…it really annoys me. One time I was in a store and a girl walked right up to me and just stared at my face. Maybe it’s because I have a different look, or dress a little differently I’m not sure. It is extremely rude, but I forgive the kids because they are kids and are curious. But I get really annoyed when the moms stare…
Kids should be taught not to stare at anyone who looks a little different. Whether its dress, a handicap or something else.
Adults should be aware that children often don’t have the tact and self control to avoid staring at something or someone that’s different than what they’re used to. Just ignore it; they’re just kids.
When this happens to me in shul i dont blame the kids but the absentee fathers who are sitting two rows away and pay no attention to their children during davening.
Should fathers be paying attention to children or to Hashem during davening?
I know exactly what you mean. People stare and sometimes dont even realize it, which makes it even worse.
I tell my children every so often not to stare and point at people.
one of my children has a physical disability and people stare. my child is too young to understand why, but it pains me. and this makes me more sensitive about this issue.
Shlishi if they are incapable of doing both then leave the kids at home.
Shlishi: Fathers are responsible for their kids wherever they are. If they won’t make sure that there kids act properly in Shul and want to only concentrate on Davening then they should leave the kids at home.
Same2- well said
shlishi- a father is responsible for his kids keeping quiet in shul. so much so that he can disrupt his S”E to shush them.
in response to the OP- i put on a tallis at thirteen-family minhag- and shortly after was in sqvere/ new square for shabbos. i had literally hundreds of little chassidishe kids staring, pointing and saying “A kleine’ tatte”. it wasnt funn but you laugh it off. and kids will be kids. and when adults do it to me-i wave.
It’s called the Boro Park Stare (BPS). It is a shortcoming on the parents’ part that they don’t admonish their children not to stare at people. Someone once told me that they stare back at their shoes like they see a bug, and sometimes it gets them to stop…
You think if you visited Beijing, China in a shtreimel and bekeshe that the Chinese kids wouldn’t be staring at you?
It’s normal.
Shlishi: I think they would be justified in staring at you to a certain extent, because that would be extraordinarily foreign. I think the main complaint is that such people do not have any justification for staring. The fact that they even have the hava aminah to say such people are not Jewish is quiet disturbing, as my impression on Judaism was that one is defined through his ruchnias not his gashmius.
I was on vacation recently and went to a hotel with a lot of people from Lakewood. I wear a white kippah sruga and there were a lot of people staring at me. I didn’t find them staring at me uncomfortable, I found the fact that they saw a reason to stare uncomfortable.
difference is that in china they stare at you and when you pass by, thats the end of it.
So you agree the staring in some cases is justifiable. Okay. When a kid who is steeped in Yiddishkeit and knows nothing of the outside world (which is a very good thing) sees someone dressed in a short skirt c”v or wearing a punk hat or even a t-shirt or short pants, that is like the kids in China seeing the guy with the shtreimel and bekeshe.
With the adults there is a certain level of condescension when they stare at you and kids do pick up these attitudes from their parents that some jews are not as good as they are.
@shlish, staring is wrong. i dont think there is any justifiable reason. I just stated that the difference between the chinese in chinatown staring and the BP’ers staring is that one group stares adn turns away, and one group stares, judges, and passes on their opinion…
Shlishi: I’m not entirely sure what you mean when you said “knows nothing of the outside world (which is a very good thing).”
Maybe it is like the Chinese person who sees a streimel, but I think the situation is were people are dressed appropriately, as was the OP’s and Goq’s case.
One of the reasons that most Litvisheh Shuls don’t have kids under a certain age come to Shul, because they believe the kids Shter the Davening.
RedNails19; This unfortunately is a REAL problem.
It has bothered me for a long time.
Although It bothers me when I notice little kids doing it.
I, and hopefully those who get stared down, understand that kids tend to do this. Even gentile kids are guilty of this. That is in a child’s nature unless educated by his parents to avoid it.
What really irritates me, is when I see adults from our community doing it. It is so offensive and totally goes against what the Torah stands for.
There is this one time in particular when an African American Geir Tzedek, (or maybe he was born a Yid) entered a certain shul in BP
for a minyan Maariv. The second he walked in I (as well as the entire shul) noticed him. Almost everyone was just staring at him. Some people kept looking back at him every few seconds, This one man I noticed, just stared, rather gaped at him with his mouth open literally the whole davening! I’m not sure he even said 20%
of the words he just satred standing very close to.
He continued staring at him as if by looking at him long enough, he’d figure out his name address and life story.
At first I got flushed and embarrassed for what that Geir goes through. It bothered me so much!
Then I just got mad at this Total Goilem Shoiteh for acting like a five year old child.
When Shomnei Esrei came, everyone started, I was still a little behind, but this guy was still just standing and staring.
It was disgusting! We have a Chiuv of V’ohavtah Es Hageir,
We have a Chiyuv to be Mekarev them! OK! You’re not on the level.
No problem! But to totally ALIENATE a Ger?
To make him feel self conscious? Unwelcome? An outsider to be stared at like an exhibit at the zoo? This is unacceptable, downright disgusting, and Assur.
There are other cases, where people act similarly though it’s totally not in the spirit of Ahavas Yisroel or how the Torah
intends for us to behave or be perceived by others.
So believe me, RN19; I hear you!
someone recently posted on a blog or list in Israel that only in Israel do pple stare nonstop. sorry it happens to you. what can be done to stop it.
This definitely also does happen in Eretz Yisroel – I have first hand experience. I broke my ankle about 8 months ago (BH it’s all good now), and for part of the recovery period I had a “moon boot” – a plastic strap-on cast instead of plaster which I was allowed to walk on. I was hobbling down the street to catch a bus by a very busy neighborhood in Yerushalayim, and every single child – probably many adults too – was staring at my leg as if I’d fallen out of the sky from a different planet
The truth is I’ve seen Israeli kids staring at anything – a bulldozer for example – for hours at a time. I don’t get it…..just one of my questions regarding this interesting country.
Uh, sorry to rain on all the BP basher’s parade, but I think the staring that Red Nails was talking about had little to do with the intolerance of BP kids when it comes to outsiders or people that do not dress like the masses of 13th ave.
V’Hamaivin, Yovin
I think its perfectly normal for people to examine a new person who passes them by whether in the street or in a store. I don’t think they should be staring but I also look people up and down when I see them just to examine them in my mind and see if anything is familiar about them(i.e. I know their sister, they have the same shoes as my friend..) I try to look at people not in a condescending way, but yes I do give a good look.
Nobody’s talking about giving them a look over, it’s what you do afterwards. 2nd and third and fourth once-over’s.
There’s a reason why it’s called a once-over!
RedNails, welcome back. I agree with you. Believe or not this happened to me over 30 years ago in BP on a Yom Tov, I was walking with my husband and these two woman were staring at me, so I said “Gut Shabbos, do you know me, why are you staring?” I caught them off guard, they said “Oh we were admiring your hat!”.
My father and brother once came to shul to pick me up from a shiur (they didn’t want me walking home in the dark), there was a little bit of a misunderstanding and my father went inside the shul but I thought he was meeting me outside….anyway, 3 little boys came up to me and said “2 goyim just walked into shul!” referring to my father and brother. I was extremely hurt and I remember crying when I got home. I didn’t really blame the kids because they were young, but the parents really should teach their children that all Jews are different and have different style of dress etc-plus it’s not very nice to openly stare at people!
Red; You’re very welcome!
Welcome back RedNails. A lot of this has to do with upbringing in the home. The parents are responsible to tell their children that they will meet or see a lot of different kinds of people/dress in their lifetimes and that it is plain rude to stare. A brief glance is one thing and if they find it so interesting, they can ask or discuss later at home. That would be the difference in China. The children are brought up to respect their elders. They would take a brief look and ask about it later at home. Sometimes these home lessons must be repeated several times so that they remember. Occasionally, a young child may blurt out something that is purely innocent. When my brother A’H’ was very young he saw a nun for the first time. In those days they wore long black habits and headpieces. He looked and then said to my mother (and not in a stage whisper) “why is that lady wearing a Hallowe’en costume?” My mother was very embarassed but the nun assured her that it was quite alright and that she had heard much worse about her dress. My brother’s lessons began that day. There is no excuse for older children, teens and adults exhibiting this same behaviour.
welcome back! .. whenever i go to boro park i get stared at, i don’t really care because they’re really just not used to the dressing a little differently,
but i admire the children that don’t,- my cousins that live in Lakewood , even though they’re under the age of 7 they still know that it’s inappropriate to stare and accept us for who we are and have fun with us and they know at the same time that theyre a bit different and that not everyone grew up like them
i think it’s very smart of the parents to teach them this at a young age, the kids will become much nicer people 😀
toi r u yekkish?
My aunt who is 89 b”ah, lived in BP for a few years about 10 years ago. These little boys on her block called her a shiksa. She is an Auschwitz survivor and she was a pre-school teacher. She asked them in Yiddish, “vi zoi veis tu az ech bin a shiksa?” So they said that because she doesn’t cover her hair she is a shiksa. So she said, “Ech bin nisht farheiret ech darf nisht!”. They were so shocked she left them with their mouths hanging open.
My aunt unfortunately never married. But she is one of the smartest women I know.
i hate when pp stare! i try very hard to teach my children not to point or stare
a funny store happened the other day (talking about kids who dont see things) i was in a store and a frum lady was talking to me and my daughter was tryign to get my attention b”h she didnt say what was on her mind out loud afterwards she told me that i should tell the lady to pull down her teichel cuz her hair was showing and she doesnt realize. i tried explaining that i dont know her and dont want to embarrase her (go try explaining that how the lady wanted to wear her teichel)
We once parked in Boro Park to do some shopping. We got back to the car and were loading it up, when my wife noticed about 6 frum kids sitting on the stoop and staring at us. She turned to them and said, “What’s the matter, you’ve never seen people from Baltimore before?” Didn’t do anything, they just kept on staring.
Aries can u please translate?
@BPGirl – why would you examine every person that passes by? Dont we have doctors for that?!
On a more serious note, “examining” someone is considered staring. When someone says that someone else is staring at them, it doesnt mean that their eyes are wide open and staring, it means that the person is looking at them in a way that makes them uncomfortable, in other words “examining” them.
I am seasoned and thick-skinned enough to fargin staring, especially from children, though it does hint at poor upbringing. Sometimes, you have to accept it. One case i remember well, was when a friend and I walked into shabbos shacharis at the Satmar bungalow colony. He was wearing a almost white beige suit, and I was either in blue seersucker or maybe mint green. (This was the late seventies, the age of polyester). There were some young ones wide eyed and pointing and who could really object? Now in EY where the cookie cutter lines are really rigid, I find that because I work in ratty uniforms and look like a scarecrow, kids who rarely see a working father take me for an Arab. In some respects, it is a defense mechanism. In the supermarket I am often once overed, and I see the confusion in those young eyes, not being able to assemble the tzitis and the beard with the rest of the package.
That’s akin to the guy in shtreimel and bekeshe walking down a crowded residential street in Beijing, China.
“(and im reg BY litvish/with it family) I was a bum bec i wore a denim skirt…”
Litvish? Maybe you meant to say BP heimish? Because Litvish implies yeshivish, which is a bit of a steera with denim skirts (unless you were 8 years old at the time)
I don’t blame the children, the adults are just as bad…I was once in Boro Park for a Bar Mitzvah…I felt the stares on the back of my neck…I think the kids were confused as to why a “Goyish Family” was wearing kippas and Tzizus…. 🙂
They have no clues that there are Jews who are religious, but don’t necessarily wear black pants, white shirts, and hats…
To them, if we don’t fit the Mold, we are goyim…sad but true…
I’ve davened at tother shuls here at home that are outside “my element” for one reason or other…always felt welcomed and no stares….I think the staring is a New York thing
And the Chinese have no clue there are people who wear shtreimels and bekeshes.
It’s normal.
There’s no need to educate the Chinese that there are human being who wear shtreimels. And there is no need to educate frum NY children that there are frum people who wear tiny yarmulkas, short pants, and colorful t-shirts. It’ll confuse the children into thinking it’s okay to dress however they want. And it’s not okay.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.