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This is something that has been bothering me. I’ve always been told that as a Jew, I believe that this world is simply a gateway to the next world, and that I do things in this world in order to reap the rewards in the next world. That I learn as much Torah as possible so that I will enjoy the next world, eternally. That I follow certain rules and guidelines, which will give me schar in the next world.
This is all lovely, but I don’t understand something: Why is everything about MY eternal enjoyment, MY schar, MY reward? Isn’t that a little self-centered? That we are going through life only doing things to benefit OURSELVES in the world to come? I would understand if this world is for us to help benefit OTHERS, and help OTHERS get reward and enjoyment, and doing that will give us happiness and fulfillment in this world. Am I missing something?
There is a healthy and unhealthy approach when relating with oneself which should not be confused:
healthy- self-esteem, self-confidence, humility
Unhealthy- narcissism, self-absorption, egotistical
As long as we keep in mind that our neshamos are in fact given from Him, and the world a gift from Hashem, we’re OK.
Remember the 2 pockets: ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????
If this is something that bothers you, you may benefit by reading the works of R. Samson Raphael Hirsch. In his view, our whole purpose – the reason why God singled out the Jewish people, and the reason why we were given the Torah – is so that we will ebenfit others and the whole world through our conduct. Just as God is maleh chessed, so too, we must be maleh chessed; just as God used his creative power to bring create human beings so that they might benefit from acting properly in this world, so too, we must use our abilities to benefit the world around us. This is what is meant by Hashem’s bracha to Avraham that his children will be a bracha – we are tasked with being a positive force for the world around us; to act not for ourselves, but for others.
[T]
– R. Samson Raphael Hirsch, Horeb: A Philosophy of Jewish Laws and Observances 247-48 (Dayan Dr. Isidore Grunfeld, transl., ed., 1968).hmm.. middlepath , can’t you also think when your doing a mitzvah not only that ur getting reward but that Hashem asked this of us and we do it because of how much we love Hashem 😀
MiddlePath
What you have mentioned is all the Shelo Lishmah. All people have to start at the Shelo Lishma to keep them motivated and focused on doing the right things and avoiding the temptations of the Yetzer Hora. However once one has made very significant advances in Avodas Hashem after many many years of working on himself, he/she can switch the focus to serving Hashem purely out of love for Hashem and focus on doing the Ratzon Hashem because thats what He wants and completely nullifying the self and live a life totally immersed in Ratzon Hashem and only thinking about “what does Hashem want me to do right now.”
Additionally, bear in mind that doing for others is a huge mitzvah and it is Avodas Hashem. One of the biggest mitzvos and chassadim one can do is learn Torah with someone else.
most people need some sort of personal incentive to follow strict rules which, from a beginers perspective, dont seem enjoyable and fulfilling. im sure your rov, rebbe, etc dont do it for the schar. we have to strive to get there.
It reminds me of methods of parenting. We tell our children “if you do what you’re told, then you will get such and such (an ice-cream, stay up late, etc) and if you don’t do such and such you will lose out on something (a trip, a playdate etc”. We need to be taught through external motivators the value of listening. These motivators are tangible rewards. The idea of being good being it’s own reward may be too distant for us to comprehend initially. Perhaps it’s the same with shcar v’onesh.
I just want to put this out there. Granted that we are supposed to do things so that our neshamos can (finally) rest in shomayim where they belong with all their tasks completed, we are at the same time given the task of living in/with this world. This means that we are supposed to have some level of enjoyment and pleasure from this world. Obviously this does not mean we take self centered pleasure, rather, we take pleasure that will allow us to accomplish that which we need to get accomplished. For example, we need to eat, drink, and sleep. We could technically eat dry bread, drink water, and sleep on an uncomfortable hay mattress. Hey, we are eating, drinking, and sleeping right? No. Unless we are at the level where we need less physical pleasure to live that is not what is right. What the average person nowadays needs to do is have three proper meals a day and sleep on mattresses that help with a good night’s refreshing sleep. This in and of itself is serving Hashem because we are taking care of ourselves for that exact purpose.
Hope this helps
😀 Zuberman! 😀
MiddlePath:
Fair point. However, serving Hashem for the reward is considered the lowest level of service, probably because it is kinda self-centered. The highest level is doing something only because Hashem wants it done, with no thoughts about yourself at all.
RSRH:
I believe R’ Dessler held something similar.
Middle Path:
“…if, G-d forbid, a Jew questions G-d’s existence or rebels against the Torah, and he was taught to only do good deeds because G-d wants us to, then he has no reason to do good deeds. If he doesn’t believe in G-d, he will have no problem stealing, murdering, etc., because the only thing preventing him from doing such things is that “G-d said not to”.”
If a Jew ch”v denies Hashem’s existence there’s really very little difference if he does mitzvos or aveiros – he’s not getting into Olam Habba either way.
“Wouldn’t it be safer for people not a such a high level of faith, to be taught the lessons and rules of basic moral conduct that they are simply how a mature, responsible human being should act?”
Absolutely not. We should do the mitzvos not because we have independently decided that this is “moral”, but because this is what Hashem said should do. And if He said to do something, obviously it is the right thing to do. If somebody does the mitzvos only because they fit with his “morals”, he is not serving Hashem at all; he serving only his own made-up morals.
[T]
That is called a freier in the slang of the medine. Hillel was far more realistic. We are human. RSRH is referring to an ideal and I have a feeling something was lost in translation here.
Middle Path –
You bring up a real difficulty when you said, “If he doesn’t believe in G-d, he will have no problem stealing, murdering, etc., because the only thing preventing him from doing such things is that ‘G-d said not to.'” As strange as it may be to say it, this is in fact the reality of the situation. An individual who does not believe in G-d lacks any real imperative to be what we would deem a “good” person. When I say lacks any real imperative, I mean an absolute imperative. IE he may not murder, steal, cheat, etc. because of fear of getting caught, being ostracized by society, or because he personally feels it to be wrong. But, these are all relative reasons. It is only through H’ that we have an absolute right or wrong and with that a real, external and immutable, reason and chiuv to perform mitzvahs and avoid aveiras. That being the case, if one were to remove G-d from the situation (so to speak), there’s no real reason to help another, honor parents, etc. as well as not to murder, steal, cheat, etc. Granted, society may very well disagree with what an individual does, but once again society’s norms are relative norms (think Nazi Germany Yemach Shmo). One could argue, “Derech Eretz Kadma l’Torah,” but that still only applies in a framework where there is G-d. Removing G-d from the situation also removes all moral imperatives. Looking forward to your response.
Middle- you are the one who benefits when you look out for others and help others
[Genesis 1:27]. For Man is [uniquely] capable of being merciful by doing good for and giving to [others]
even people who don’t believe in G-d can be moral, have values.
no they cant
they cannot!
they do not.
their “values” stem only from their desire for self-fulfillment.
maybe this comes in the form of helping others or being “good” for some.
but it is all selfishness and without bechira
the moment they are no longer satisfied by it, it all ends.
tha germans were well known across europe as the friendliness, most helpful, most COMPASSIONATE of all peoples at that time.
the tutis and hutus african tribes were neighbors living in friendliness and love and harmony for many years until it was no longer convenient and they began hacking up their innocent women and children next-door neighbors with machetes
as you well know the list goees on and on among all people and all times.
even people who don’t believe in G-d can be moral, have values, and get fulfillment from helping others.
Exactly. They do it because they “get fulfillment”, or feel good about themselves (not that I have issue with it).
RSRH, I think R’ Dessler means it in a slightly different way then RSRH (the original). If I’m not mitaken, R’ Dessler has a piece where explains that becoming a “giver” is mevatel the self-centeredness that is the main cause of people not seeing what they should be doing. I believe this explains why Avrahom was the first person to recognize Hashem; because he was completely mevatel his “yesh”. (It’s been a while since I saw this, so I may have gotten it somewhat wrong.) This differs from the standard philosophy that chessed helps one come close to Hashem by becoming more “like” Hashem (as the Gemora says, “mah Hu rachum af atah rachum”).
Middle Path:
“even people who don’t believe in G-d can be moral, have values”
Being “moral” only because you have decided that it is the right thing to do is worth nothing. If one does not believe in God, they have no chelek in Olam Habba. Nadda, nothing, zilch. Any “good” that they do in their lives is worthless. This is because the only point in being a good person is to listen to Hashem and emulate Him, and thereby grow closer to Him. If one is trying to be a good person for any other reason, there is no point. So yes, an apikores can be “moral” and they can have “values”, depending on how you define the terms, but it simply isn’t worth anything.
mp,
Keep in mind that everything Hashem commanded us is the best thing for us AND for the whole world. Meaning by following His laws we are creating a perfect world and if we dont we are destroying it. (And its not just because one is a mitzvah and the other is an averah.) Hashem gave us those mitzvah and those averahs because these set of rules is exactly what is required for the world to exist. We are the first beneficiary of our deeds because we are closest to it then our families, our city, our country and the whole world gets affected by it.
MiddlePath –
Of course a person can still practice good deeds if he doesn’t believe in G-d. My point was that his reasons for doing so are relative (I do what I think is right) vs. absolute (this is what HaKadosh Baruch Hu decreed for us to follow). The issue with moral relativism (what a non believer would follow when doing good deeds) is that my personal morals (don’t kill, don’t steal, etc.) have as much bearing as another’s personal morals. Thus when two relative moralities are in conflict – my morals say don’t kill, steal, etc. whereas anothers say kill, steal, etc. whose takes precedence? Accordingly, although a personal could and very well may live a “moral life” without G-d in it, it is still a relative morality. Hope this clarifies.
Interestingly, belief in Hashem is not one of the Zayin MItzvos, I think. Not believing in Avoda Zara is, however. (Correct me if I am wrong).
If one does not believe in God, they have no chelek in Olam Habba. Nadda, nothing, zilch.
Source? And don’t bring “Apikores”.
Any “good” that they do in their lives is worthless.
Patently false. Even Rashaim get Schar in this world, so that they need not be rewarded in the next.
way too deep for my right now but you really have a very unusual depth
MW13, Gavra, et al –
MW13 said “Being ‘moral’ only because you have decided that it is the right thing to do is worth nothing.” Well, yes and no. Certainly there is schar in this world and this is the reward of the individual in question(I believe Gavra stated this above). Something we’ve neglected to note (and much more importantly), is that if this person truly does leave a righteous life (albeit without G-d), then potentially through this non-believer’s deeds/morality he merits some siyata d’Shmaya through which he comes to belief in G-d. In all likelihood, this may be some of this person’s “schar” in this world ie greater assistance in recognizing Hashem’s existence.
Ultimately, I don’t think we can belittle the merit a mitzvah/good deed/moral lifestyle, whether or not he is a believer. It may very well be that he returns to Hashem through the merit of these mitzvahs/good deeds/moral lifestyle. As we all know, Hashem is faithful to repay reward and what greater reward can there be for an individual than to come to the solid belief and knowledge of the existence of HaKadosh Baruch Hu.
The purpose of the whole creation is to get to the ultimate goal, in Olam Habaa. Someone who is kind in this world, for the sake of this world, gets rewarded in this world.
The greater the person the loftier his desires. The highest and loftiest desire is to desire Hashem. That is Olam Habaa. You say you’ll shun a small desire of eating your lunch for a greater one, of being able to help someone. There is even a greater thing, to become holy and close to Hashem, eternaly. That is what holy people desire.
I hope you are aware of the famous Mishna about Hevei Ka’avadim Shemishamshim Es Harav Shelo Al Menass Lekabel Pras. We are all taught this Mishna that it is better to worship Hashem just because He said so, and not for the reward. That would suffice to answer your first question. However, as I pointed out earlier, even someone who is doing Mitzvos to collect Olam Habaa, is a great Tzaddik. Tell me if you reached that point that you don’t desire earthly things. A self centered person is someone who makes sure he gets his goodies. A philanthropist who enjoys becoming famous for his accomplishments is not considered self centered. To ask this question is to view Olam Habaa very simplistically, or like a Muslim.
The problem I have is that it sounds like you think it’s better to act for the sake of Earth than for the sake of Hashem.
MiddlePath-
Your questions are excellent. Not that I have complete clarity in these issues, and no matter what, I think for any human being these concepts will always be seen through an ???????? ????? ?????, but there are some notes.
First, I think you would benefit greatly from reading Rambam. ???? ?????, his introduction to Avos, is a great place to start, and there is an English version available as well. Also, in his ????? ??????? in ??? the Rambam explains at length how we are supposed to understand reward and punishment etc. Then there is also the Moreh of course, and I could give you some ???? ?????? if you are interested.
Second, regarding your comment about morality: While it is true that there can be an unbeliever who lives a moral life by our definition, his morality is relative. That is not to say he won’t live and die by his morals. It is simply to say that those morals are subject to time and place, and every society in history has had different things they believed were right and wrong. Also, without being grounded in a belief that “God said so,” a thinking person’s mind can lead him anywhere. Nietzsche believed that there should be a master class that should be allowed to do whatever they see fit and only the rest of the world should have rules, and they should be slaves to the master class. I don’t know what he would have said about the Holocaust but you can certainly see how according to his line of thinking you might end up with people saying that there was nothing “immoral” about it. For any moral to be real, it needs to be grounded, and the only thing that can truly ground a moral is simply that “God said so.”
MiddlePath:
“mw13, I respectfully disagree. I don’t think it is worth nothing. If someone who doesn’t believe in G-d helps another person, and that person is inspired to help others, and so on, the original “non-believer” in my opinion has done something extremely worthwhile… It’s interesting that you mention how someone who doesn’t belive in G-d has no portion in Olam Habah, because that point is exactly what I was talking about in my original post.”
Perhaps he has done something nice, but it still isn’t actually “good” or “moral”. Also, when I pointed out that an apikorus has no Olam Haba it wasn’t to say that Olam Haba is the only point of doing good, only that when one does good they get Olam Haba. (Meaning that if somebody serves Hashem just for hashem’s sake or for any other worthy reason, he still gets Olam Haba for it.) So if an apikorus doesn’t go to Olam Haba, obviously all the “good” he has done is worthless.
GAW:
“Source?”
The Rambam (forgot exactly where) says that anybody who does not believe in thirteen certain principles has no cheilek in Olam Haba.
And I’m not sure what you mean by “don’t bring “Apikores””.
kol daveed:
“Certainly there is schar in this world and this is the reward of the individual in question(I believe Gavra stated this above).”
I wouldn’t call it schar, only a reality; helping others leads to fulfillment. Just like one would not say that being full is schar for eating, being fulfilled is not schar for helping others; its just the natural effect.
“Something we’ve neglected to note (and much more importantly), is that if this person truly does leave a righteous life (albeit without G-d), then potentially through this non-believer’s deeds/morality he merits some siyata d’Shmaya through which he comes to belief in G-d.”
My entire point here is that doing “good” for any reason not involving Hashem is worth nothing. And if this “good” is worth nothing, one cannot merit anything through its.
“Ultimately, I don’t think we can belittle the merit a mitzvah/good deed/moral lifestyle, whether or not he is a believer.”
I agree that we should not belittle it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s actually worth anything.
HaLeiVi, excellent post.
Middle Path:
“I do think that acting properly for the sake of the world IS acting for the sake of G-d… I think acting morally and being giving for the world is something G-d would want, so that IS acting for His sake.”
I don’t think its so simple. As RSRH pointed out above, we should help others to emulate Hashem, and thereby grow closer to Him. This is the main point of giving, helping others, fixing the world, etc. And if one does not believe in Hashem, he is missing this main point.
“After thinking about this a bit more, I realized that there is also a major difference between the following:
I am doing a good deed because G-d said so.
I am doing a good deed because I love G-d, and want to show my love by following His commands.
We should strive to be in the latter group. And I don’t think teaching our children the first method would be too beneficial. What do you all think of this distinction?”
While the serving Hashem out of love is indeed IMHO better than doing the mitzvos just because He said so, both are legitimate ways of serving Hashem. And I think we should first train our children to serve Hashem in the easiest way to understand; which is that we are serving Hashem for reward. Once they accept that and have a reason to serve Hashem, we can try to move on to higher level of avodas Hashem.
Middlepath: Religion is based on the understanding that God created man so that he should grow and reach a higher spiritual level during his life. God didn’t create people to merely serve other people; since if that were the case, He would not have created man altogether and then nobody would need to be taken care of. Yes, God created us with natural feelings to want to give to others, but the reason why God created us with these natural feelings, was in order for us to reach a higher ‘madreiga’/level through this act of helping others. Our natural feelings of wanting to give to others for the sake of others does not run contradictory to our knowledge that we also become elevated through this act of giving to others and serve purpose for our creation. Chaza”l say “Lo Nivra Ha’adam Elu L’Zulaso”.
The Rambam (forgot exactly where) says that anybody who does not believe in thirteen certain principles has no cheilek in Olam Haba.
And I’m not sure what you mean by “don’t bring “Apikores””.
Since when do these apply to a non-jew?
MW13 –
“I wouldn’t call it schar, only a reality; helping others leads to fulfillment. Just like one would not say that being full is schar for eating, being fulfilled is not schar for helping others; its just the natural effect.”
The issue with this is that the Ribono Shel Olam runs the world. Accordingly, nothing can be said to be “natural,” but rather is precisely calculated as to when and how to occur by none other than Hashem Himself. Being full may not be schar for eating, but a person may eat a given shiur of food and thereafter feel content, hungry, sick, etc. This feeling then necessarily is either schar or onesh not based upon eating but based upon what Hashem deems is necessary for this person to experience at this time. So too when performs an act of chesed and feels fulfilled therafter, this feeling of “fulfillment” is a gift from HaKadosh Baruch Hu. In fact, we know this from the famous gemara we say each morning after Birchas HaTorah “Alu devarim sh’adam ochail paroteichem b’olam hazeh v’hakeren kayamet b’olam haba…ugemilut chassadim…” I would hasten a guess that this feeling of fulfillment is amongst the “parot” of gemilut chassadim.
My entire point here is that doing “good” for any reason not involving Hashem is worth nothing. And if this “good” is worth nothing, one cannot merit anything through its.
– We may not be able to find common ground on this point because I believe you are categorically wrong (and I would imagine you think/feel the same). My friend, for 21 years I “did good” without any notion or idea of Hashem. Was I in some way opposed to Hashem? No, absolutely not. Rather it was lav da’atay. Being raised in a secular Jewish home, Hashem couldn’t even be said to have been an afterthought. Yet, through the infinite mercy of HaKadosh Baruch Hu, I was exposed to Torah and returned. So I ask you, by what did I merit this tremendous chesed? Ok so maybe you can argue it had nothing to do with how I lived my life up until that point. Fine. So from another angle then, we know that from the gemara in Berachos (61b – about a dozen lines down) that reshaiim are repaid their s’char in full in this world: V’amar Rava: lo ebrei alma ela l’reshaii gamurei or l’tzadikei gamurei. Rashi on l’reshaii gamurei – Ha’olam hazeh. Sh’ain lahem b’olam haba klum v’tzarichin limol (sp?) s’charan can. K’gon achav, sh’hayah asheer me’od (And Rava said: The world was not created excepted for the sake of the completely wicked or the completely righteous. Rashi on “for the sake of the complete wicked – (is) this world for there is not to them the world to come whatsoever and it’s needed to repay their s’char (reward) here. Such an example is Achav (one of the most wicked kings of the Jewish people) who was very wealthy). Unless you can make the argument that rashaiim gamurim are also doing good involving Hashem (which is farfetched to say the least), I do not see how you can say “and one cannot merit anything through it (sic).”
Looking forward to your response.
“Anochi Hashem Elokecha” would seem to be a fundamental belief, in order to accept the rest of the Torah. To care about following the rest of the mitzvos,there must be a presuppositon that Hashem gave us those mitzvos.
Personal morality is very subjective. It fluctuates with the times in which a person lives. What was moral in one generation may no longer be thought to be necessary in a future generation. Just look at the new marriage laws enacted in NY State recently.
The only true morality is that which Hashem has told us is moral and just. Though there are some discussions as to the intent and exact meaning of certain halachos, with some people’s hashkafos differing from others, the basic halachos which all frum people typically follow, remain unchanged since the time of Moshe Rabeinu. Time and generation have not altered the Torah. And that’s the difference.
very good oomis.
i remember when if you would have suggested to remove someone from life support, the nurses and doctors would be horrified and consider you a monster, and a would be murderer.
now they are much kinder because they care so much for the ill person and cant bear to see him suffer. they will pressure the family with every cunning form of persuasion and guilt arousal to get them to agree to kill them.
both positions based on man made “morality” which is as oomis described.
of course each person feels he is above such fickle morality and can trust his own conscience and feelings to guide his as to what is right and wrong. i think this is your position MP
BUT IT IS NOT SO!
THIS IS PASHUT
just look into it
look at the kindly helpful, polite, compassionate germans. and that they were, they actually were. it wasnt a front. until the “moral” climate changed.
MiddlePath-
Btw, thanx for the compliment 🙂
I am doing a good deed because I love G-d, and want to show my love by following His commands.
While in principle I agree with this, I believe it is an oversimplification.
One might say that the purpose of not murdering your friend when you are angry is to show your love to God. On some level this is true, but not directly. Allow me to explain.
Mod80: I agree with middle path. Natural moral feelings are real and genuine. The Torah doesn’t deny the validity of these feelings; but rather the Torah obligates us to take other considerations into account; like the sanctity of human life etc. The Germans were thoroughly evil people in nature.
moral “feelings”?
its not just the germans
its everywhere at all times
moral “feelings” are dependent on the current moral climate.
american vietnam vets, mostly from “moral” backgrounds who wouldnt hurt a fly without a reason, murdered innocent women and children, often participated in fragging (shooting a overly strict head of the platoon in the back) i know this from personal reports from friends. were they inherently evil. dont tell wartime is an exception. no, its merely that during wartime, the culture and attitudes of your fellow soldiers, the determinants of what is “moral” created a moral atmoshphere of the lightness of murder. in WWII and every earlier american war such things as fragging were unheard of.
all moral feelings come from the particular society and times in which you live.
the wellsprings of conscience that Chazal speak about no longer apply our surroundings are immmeasurably more corrupt than then (R A. Miller, tz’l)
Mods: There are many liberals out there who hate war altogether. Natural human feelings are God’s creation and they are real. This doesn’t contradict our obligation of Bain Adam L’Makom even if they run contrary to our natural feelings of bain adam l’chaveiro. The Pirkei Avos which decribes the character of Avrohom Aveinu vs. Bilam Hrasha seems to infer to natural human feelings.
okay youve convinced me
every person can use his feelings to determine right from wrong
of course G-d helps in that but we can basically rely on our objective and wise feelings, because G-d gave us those feelings
yes im beginning to see your point
Mod80: The Torah instructs us how to lead every aspect of our lives. Some mitzvos we are instructed with are solely bain adam l’makom and others are a combination of bain adam l’chaveiro and bain adam l’makom. My point is that the essence of bain adam l’chaveiro mitzvos are an expression of our nautural moral feelings which Hashem created us with.
yes thats true
and OTHER ‘feelings” were created within us such as tayvah, kinah, anger, hatred, selfishness, etc
and to choose between these two sets of passions we MUST have Torah and nothing else, not “feelings” like the liberals have to justify letting criminals loose to torture the innocent.
we do not choose the moral path by our feelings
this is such a pashut and basic concept in the Briah
if you dont inderstand theres nothing more i can say
Lomed Mkol Adam-
The essence of bain adam l’chaveiro mitzvos are an expression of our natural moral feelings which Hashem created us with.
I don’t believe ???? ?????? mean they are inborn feelings. If they were they would be called ???? ???????. What they are, from my understanding, are mitzvos which one could figure out through contemplation and experiment, without Hashem telling us to do them.
Do you have a source for this idea that people are born with natural, moral feelings?
Mod: With all due respect, I just still can’t understand. Every normal Goy out there will tell you hat we should choose love over hatred, anger and jealousy.
Yitayningwut: Its quiet obvious that people are born with natural moral tendences to love other people. Some may feel insecure and choose to hate rather than love, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that they also were born with instincts to love.
In order to eventually do things l’shem shamayim, we have to start somewhere. If doing things for sechar helps us start doing things it’s wonderful because we can use it as a stepping stone for more lofty persuits.
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