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The police chief in Oslo, Norway has said that the mass murderer who admitted killing 100 people on Friday in the twin bomb attacks and shootings faces only a maximum penalty of 21 years under Norway and Europe’s liberal laws! If the mass murderer of over 100 people is insufficient for the death penalty — which the European Union forced all their members to repeal — then their truly is no justice in Europe. G-d only help us if we imitate those crazy Europeans style of justice.
While the maximum penalty for any particular crime in Norway is indeed 21 years, the Criminal Code of the Kingdom of Norway also permits indefinite preventative detention after the completion of a sentence if the person is still deemed a threat to society, essentially allowing for a life sentence.
The presence of a death penalty if anything is associated with higher rates of homicide. Norway’s homicide rate is about one eighth that of the United States, and has declined in recent years.
I once heard from Rabbi Shmuel Yaakov Weinberg zt”l of Ner Israel that the way to reduce the homicide rate is not by the death penalty. As there is no correlation between death penalty and reduced homicides. The way to reduce homicides is to have respect for human life and to respect people as to not hurt them. If you don’t care about hurting someone, then that can escalate to far greater things.
Please. Your average death row offender is proof that human beings share 98% of DNA with great apes. He is a creature who, either because of his being born to a drug-addicted mother or at the very least a mother who did not get prenatal care, or because of a defective gene combined with an utter lack of regard for other human beings, has surrendered his tzelem elokim.
And I don’t care if his name is Levi Aron, Martin Grossman, Ted Bundy or Tookie Williams – or for that matter if it is Zacarias Moussaoui who follows an ideology that glorifies repeated death penalty offenses. He needs to be erased. And we need to make sure, through supporting candidates who want to cut welfare, that no more of these creatures are born.
While the maximum penalty for any particular crime in Norway is indeed 21 years, the Criminal Code of the Kingdom of Norway also permits indefinite preventative detention after the completion of a sentence if the person is still deemed a threat to society, essentially allowing for a life sentence.
That’s an interesting angle for them to take.
I’m not sure I’m comfortable with that. It means they are basically locking people up for life without having to declare them guilty of a crime which is being punished.
Maybe we should at least give criminals the dignity of being able to be punished for their crimes and not treated as helpless children.
The whole leftist mindset is about treating adults like children so that the dictatorship of the left can make sure that they are as dependent upon them as children are dependent on their parents.
Popa,
I doubt that a provision such as that in Norway would stand constitutional challenge in the United States, at least if it were applied retroactively. But it does show that Norway does realize that there are indeed people who need to be excluded forever from society, contrary to the OP.
That is so.
But they want society to feed these “people” three meals a day, provide them with medical care and pay for their housing, and guards. That often amounts to more than an average annual salary for an honest hard-working non-murderer who eats far worse and gets far worse medical care (regardless of what insurance he has).
What’s more, they even have access to law libraries so they can spend their days filing frivolous lawsuits – like the so-called frummer murderer Dreklich who sued because they took away the magazines he ordered to help him better understand hilchois Issurei Biah in Rambam (Mishne Torah)!
600,
It costs far more to get a death sentence in the US than it does to lock someone up for life.
It costs far more to get a death sentence in the US than it does to lock someone up for life.
Yes it does. And it’s worth every penny. I certainly don’t think we should give the death penalty with out some serious chance for appeals.
Sorry to all you people who hate the idea of liberalism. A short sentence is not liberal. IT is permissive. This is permissisivsm. This is not liberalism. Get your facts right.
Comparing a permissive policy with a liberal policy is like comparing goats to horses.
This antiliberalism is G-dless and pagan. All of you who bash liberalism when its really the pacificism and the permissivism that you hate should be ashamed of yourselves. You are using liberalism as a scapegoat. I have never seen true liberalism as a real problem. The problems are pacifism and permissivism and these are constantly rung up as liberalism today.
“Yes it does. And it’s worth every penny.”
Which taxes do you support increasing in order to pay for all the extra detectives and prosecutors?
Regarding the confusion of permissivism with liberalism, I will point out one great example of how they differ: Pete Seeger, the famous folksinger known for his far-left politics. He has been married to the same woman since 1943.
Which taxes do you support increasing in order to pay for all the extra detectives and prosecutors?
Don’t forget the public defenders, the judges, and everything else.
I support raising taxes on the bottom half of the wage earners in the country, for two reasons:
1. Murderers and victims are usually from this group, so it makes sense they should bear the cost.
2. They don’t pay any taxes now, so at least they can pay a little. I figure, there are 150 million people in the bottom half. If they each pay 20 bucks a year, that is 3 billion dollars to spend on justice and maintaining our morality.
(Yes, I think the death penalty is about justice and morality, not about deterrence. And I don’t have an answer to your question about the one witness, but I note that Rav moshe in his teshuva to the governor of NY didn’t mention that, and all my rebbeim have supported it.
Norway was responsible for the Oslo (peace) process, which had resulted in the shedding of hundreds of Israel lives. Now, they are getting a taste of their own medicine!!
Raising taxes on the poor? Are you nuts? That is like burning down your own home. This is not the way that a civilized society engages. Rather, employ better teachers, build your community. Then you wont have “murderers from the low wage earners”. And if you deny people opportunity, you will have discontent.
The ones to pay the share of our taxes are the high wage earners. Living in America has given them all the opportunity to earn the proceeds that they have. They must return this money to our population so that we dont have “murderers and discontent people” in any of our communities. But I know your idea wont resonate with any of the educated and intelligent voters.
My idea resonates very well with 90% of voters who are net tax payers.
BOR, the high wage earners return money by giving the low wage earners jobs or supervising them so they do their jobs right and we all benefit. Redistribution of wealth benefits only politicians in the end and that is why they push it because naive people think it is “the right thing to do” when really it breeds dependency.
All you do by redistributing wealth is encourage people to stay home and produce nothing but children, who then grow up unwanted and undisciplined (or deformed because their mothers had money to use on crack). Those kids become a drain on the economy and a menace to the well-being of decent citizens.
They also spend more. Especially in our world, sometimes it is just one or two “gvirim” who keep a small store going because everyone else is using the credit book. I have a friend in that situation with his food shop back in the US – if he didn’t have a few wealthy regulars (and a side business) he’d have gone out long ago because his credit book is a chessed and he’s not a crook who takes shtempelach on prepared food etc.
600- How about the disabled and sick. Do they want to stay home all day and “make children”? The disabled have no opportunity and they have a day of less than their interests due to their previous capacities. But by your ideas, noone except the high wage workers should enjoy prosperity and independance. The child of your “welfare” mother today may grow up to be your doctor, attorney or president of tomorrow. Do not scorn the human right to procreate.
“My idea resonates very well with 90% of voters who are net tax payers.”
Not this one! For one thing, your premises are absolutely mistaken. Poor people pay much larger fractions of their income in sales and excise taxes, and the full rate of the social security tax on their earnings. And millionaires pay a lower marginal tax rate today than the middle class. Furthermore, no less a conservative persona than Milton Freedman endorsed a NEGATIVE income tax to help the poor. The current Earned Income Tax Credit is a pale imitation of what he proposed.
“Rav moshe in his teshuva to the governor of NY didn’t mention that, and all my rebbeim have supported it.”
Rav Ahron Soloveichik z’tz’l, who was probably close to if not equal to Rav Moshe’s stature, was an outspoken opponent of the death penalty and said so publicly. All my rabbeim I’ve heard speak on the matter have told me that a Jew should not serve on a jury in a capital case. (Did Rav Moshe address the requirement for an eyewitness or did he pasken against the gemara and Rambam?)
“All you do by redistributing wealth is encourage people to stay home and produce nothing but children”
Are you seriously arguing that all the kollel families receiving public assistance need to stop having children? Chas v’shalom!
1. Poor people do pay sales tax. However, they still have a net tax gain.
We are discussing here what people vote for. People who are net tax payers overwhelmingly support what I am saying.
As for the witness issue, I have admitted I don’t know the answer. However, I will be fine if we agree that the death penalty is appropriate, and that it should be done in the proper halachic way.
Do you agree to that?
Disabled and sick are deserving recipients. That is who welfare is for, as well as for temporary emergencies. There is a whole welfare culture in the US and it is sickening. BH I picked up and left, it isn’t my problem and BH I have rights to another citizenship (NOT that of the medine which I don’t accept) if I ever am affected as the US declines and China rises.
With lower tax rates, the community would pick up the cost of the kollel. No welfare here, flat rate tax, and a thriving kollel in every town with decent monthly payments and assistance with housing etc. And every week, another kollel family has another child ken yirbu. We don’t have permanent kollel, and that really is no chisaroin – no one should be in kollel if they must have welfare to continue past say 5 years at most.
The children of the “welfare” mothers in NY became the petty thieves, third-rate drug dealers, and in-and-out revolving door prisoners that comprise the NYC underclass. Statistics make it very clear that the NY underclass just perpetuates an ugly cycle of welfare and dependency from generation to generation. There are now fourth generation welfare “families” in NYC. Probably more of them than there are fourth generation secular Jews who remained halachic, lehavdil.
They don’t even have the brains for welfare FRAUD – we all know you need a Yiddishe kop for that :)))!
Believe me, that vantz, after years of working out in the prison gym that is probably better than my old university gym, will be a menace at 53. He’ll probably leave prison as a skinhead hero.
I do not support taxing lower wage earners extra, but I do support a flat tax. What I support is ending any type of aid to NON workers who are able bodied and sound minded except in emergencies such as the one the left now perpetuates so they can be seen as the savior of the unemployed with extending benefits and creating make-work jobs here and there.
Criminals come from the ranks of the non-workers, not the lower wage earners. Once someone is a wage earner, they have no time for petty crime and they become part of the system.
I had to speak tzu brochener Spanish to my illegal cleaning lady when I lived in Crown Heights because illiterate illegal was all I could find if I could find anyone bichlal. A few streets away, there were welfare mothers and welfare grandmothers doing nothing all day. Each one of the welfarettes should have been bonded by New York State and sent to work in homes and offices all over the city that were using illegals. I’d have gladly paid 20% – 25% more for a bonded and guaranteed worker who had rules to work by, and so would any of my friends. Instead the welfarettes drank their days away and the illegals keep working.
Criminals come from ALL ranks. Have we forgotten Bernie Madoff and others?
Actually, he is not a vantz. He is a Norway rat!
Please inform me of your sophisticated language and tell me what a “vantz” is supposed to refer to.
CharlieHall said
“Regarding the confusion of permissivism with liberalism, I will point out one great example of how they differ: Pete Seeger, the famous folksinger known for his far-left politics. He has been married to the same woman since 1943. “
Peet Seeger represents yesterday’s liberalism.
basket of radishes:
“Sorry to all you people who hate the idea of liberalism. A short sentence is not liberal. IT is permissive. This is permissisivsm. This is not liberalism. Get your facts right… Comparing a permissive policy with a liberal policy is like comparing goats to horses… All of you who bash liberalism when its really the pacificism and the permissivism that you hate should be ashamed of yourselves. You are using liberalism as a scapegoat.”
Seeing as the liberals are in the vast, vast majority of cases the advocates of pacificism and permissivism, I hardly think it’s a stretch to refer to pacifist/permissive ideals as liberalism. And I certainly don’t think it’s something to be ashamed of.
“Get your facts right… Comparing a permissive policy with a liberal policy is like comparing goats to horses… This antiliberalism is G-dless and pagan. All of you who bash liberalism when its really the pacificism and the permissivism that you hate should be ashamed of yourselves… Are you nuts?… I know your idea wont resonate with any of the educated and intelligent voters…”
I hate to mix topics, weren’t you just bashing people who “denigrate” others in the “tzitzis in the summer time” thread? How exactly is what you have said here not denigrating others?
“Professor Nils Christie said (when discussing this case) that this basically almost never happens.”
I don’t doubt this — even in the US, a life sentence in the federal system really means 30 years and then parole (which is why Jonathan Pollard is scheduled for release in November 2015). But Norway has not had a situation like this since World War II — and note that the Norwegians executed Vidkun Quisling along with 36 others for war crimes and treason. Other than those executions, the last execution in Norway was prior to its 1905 independence from Sweden.
“I’d have gladly paid 20% – 25% more for a bonded and guaranteed worker who had rules to work by, and so would any of my friends.”
I have had no problem finding housekeepers who are legally permitted to work in the US and are bonded. My current housekeeper was born in the US. Is Brooklyn different from the Bronx?
“Peet Seeger represents yesterday’s liberalism.”
Mr. Seeger would certainly disagree; he still performs in public and still speaks out on various issues.
Actually, the Norway Rat should get the Nobel Prize. It already was awarded to one mass murderer who was far more destructive than this nut.
mw13- they are all grouped on the left, but they are not the same people. Good luck, you failed politics course 303.
BOT:
“they are all grouped on the left, but they are not the same people.”
That’s simply not true. The people who hold liberal monetary/economic views are almost always the ones with a pacifist worldview and idealize a permissive society.
“Good luck, you failed politics course 303.”
Why do you always insult people you disagree with? Why can’t we disagree and still have mutual respect?
“Welcome to Europe!”
I’ll take Europe’s homicide rates to America’s any day.
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