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The Mishna in Pirkei Avos says Shemoneh Esrei L’Chuppah. Is this applicable to both men and women or just men? And is it a suggestion or a directive? And does one fulfill it by marrying earlier than age 18? And why is it so unpopular these days with most people marrying later than age 18?
From the girls side, the girls are only graduating 12th grade when most are 18 or nearly turning 18 and many still want to go to seminary after that which means they are about 19 before they even begin to think about shidduchim.
In the old days a man was mature enough for marriage at 18. Today the age has moved up to about low to mid 20’s for the men. Although there are exceptions and some guys are ready at a younger age and some may not be ready until they are high 20’s or even 30’s as maturity is not dependent on age.
In the olden days, a guy who worked the fields and helped support his family was more mature at 18 than are many of boys at 25.
Droid
I heard from a # of Rabbanim that the mishnah is no longer applicable to most people bizman hazel as this mishnah is an “ideal” and most people today don’t fit that requirement. However from what I understand there are still many chassidim who get married in that age range and have good marriages, however in the non chassidish velt its just not as practical
The meaning is that from age 18 one should start looking for a shidduch.
The Mishnah is certainly applicable, but we should recognize that shomna esrei l’chupa is an application of a principle, not the principle itself. The principle of the Mishnah, as I think WIY was getting at, is that one should proceed to get married as soon as he is physically, mentally, emotionally, and financially able to do so. In mishnaic times, that would appear to have been sometime around 18, so that’s what the tanna wrote (why would he use any other age other than the one known to him from his own experiences in his own time?). Nowadays, we recognize that the mishna’s principle, if applied to modern people, would usually indicate an older age.
Droid- it’s quite clear from looking at the rest of the mishna that this particular mishna is NOT halacha. So yes, it is possible to say that the guidelines set forth in the mishna are not applicable nowadays.
Why cant we start a new trend of people getting married at 18
I dont think most 18 year olds are ready to get married. maybe if someone is as mature enough as an 18 year old then its a different story ( I mean as mature as 18 year olds used to be)
Do we follow all the other dictates of this Mishna? Are 5 year old kids learning Mikra for five years, then Mishna for five years, then start Gemara at 15? No.
The Mishna is giving us suggested guidelines that our present day Chachamim will interpret and apply as needed.
MDG, all those things are done earlier. If you want, marry at 15.
I think MDG is past that age so its too late but he can try it with his children.
I’m not so sure that we are learning it the same way as they did. But if I recall correctly, the Babi Sali got married at 13. So I guess it all depends.
I’m sorry to say this but…its some stupid parents who lost the concept of what’s important in life! They feel there children have to go thru college get a degree settle down with a job and then they r ready to start going out we a yidden have to prioritize!!!
“Do we follow all the other dictates of this Mishna? Are 5 year old kids learning Mikra for five years, then Mishna for five years, then start Gemara at 15? No.
The Mishna is giving us suggested guidelines that our present day Chachamim will interpret and apply as needed.”
And the Conservative Movement says that they can interpret and apply mishnayot as needed. There has to be a better answer to them than “we are right and they are wrong”.
And a good argument can be made — in fact it has been made, by Rabbi Hershel Schachter among others — that boy’s yeshivot overemphasize gemara, starting too early and ignoring the rest of our mesorah. The author of this mishnah would likely have agreed.
The gemara in Kiddushin 30a says otherwise.
BTW, Droid, how long ’til you get a subtitle?
ACTUALLY, WE’LL DO THAT NOW. DROID IS JOSEPH ONCE AGAIN. SIGNS UP 1 WEEK AGO, AND COMMENTED ALMOST 250 TIMES AS STARTED THREADS ABOUT KILLING, DIVORCE, AND THE REST OF THE INSANE TOPICS HE FANTISZES ABOUT
Maybe someone should start a “spot the Joseph” thread…
Its interesting this thread was started by someone who is so anti divorce. If you have people that should not be getting married so young getting married so young, whats gonna happen?
People who get married young divorce less. In fact, getting married young is one of the best antidotes against divorce. Chazal were not mistaken in recommending young marriages.
There is a difference between someone getting married young and someone getting married before they are ready.
Joseph,
You haven’t responded to the gemara in Kiddushin which gives possibilities of up to 24 years old.
HEEEY i’m gettin married young… do you think im not ready??
Joseph:
Are you married?
How old are you?
I’m actually getting married three days before I turn 19. This is not about getting married early though. It’s just that I’ve reached a point where I felt I was prepared to take this huge and exciting step. Also, I’ve had a pretty tough year which was a real growth experience. Nisyonos makes you more mature and grown-up.
In Litvishe yeshivos, before the war, they only got married at about 40!
(I once heard from Rabbi Zecharia Gelley shlitoh in the name of a maggid, I forgot which one, that when he saw these people marrying at an old age, he said that he now understood why the mishneh says BEN shemoneh esre lechupa: when they could have had already a son (Ben) of 18, they themselves go to the Chupah!)
Joe- how do u decide which name to use when posting…..
DY: I responded regarding the Gemorah in Kiddushin 30a, but it didn’t get posted. Maybe it was too long (it was only Torah reposted.)
Y’know, it’s funny, because I told my mom I was ready to get married when I was 19, and she agreed with me..I just didn’t want to marry an 18-19 year old girl, so I waited. I want an older girl. (22-24)
Middle- funny that you wanted someone older than you. I personally think those are much better off but for some reason there is a huge pressure to get married. These years are the best thing for me. I learnt so much and gained a tremendous amount
just wondering how young is young??
up till 20?? 21??
adorable, your’e absolutely right, and that’s what I told my mom. I felt that an 18-19 year old girl wouldn’t be on the same level as me for a lot of things, and I think an older girl would have a much better understanding of me, more maturity, and I feel we would associate much better. There’s a huge difference between an 18 year old girl and a 22 year old girl, the same way there’s a huge difference between a 20 year old guy and a 24 year old guy.
agree. go for it even though Im sure there are going to be lots of people telling you to marry someone young and youll grow together but stick with your guts on this one
Hey Joe:
Why don’t you answer the question? You seem critical of anyone not married by 18; did you do that?
he prob did because those were the days when he had a more “mainstream/normal” way of thinking so….. but now I dont think anyone would wanna marry him. Hes prob never home- always on the CR!
i know a boy who is 18 and just got engaged… and yes, you guessed it. he’s chassidish. now, before you all jump on me saying that that’s different, the only difference between us and them is that they grow up knowing that it’s expected that they will get married at a younger age! you don’t think he’s sitting and learning, just like all the litvish boys his age? the only difference is that he was prepared for it, while most litvish boys are not! you can’t blame the boys for not being ready if no one is helping them get ready early. if the litvish boys would grow up knowing that its expected of them to get married earlier, we would be able to prepare them earlier (maybe even “closing the age gap” which would help eliminate the “shidduch crisis”)
I dont think the only difference is that they know its coming…. i dont think they are more mature either but they are forced to live up to that. what should they do, run away? no! so they get married but they are not doing it because they feel ready. do you know for a fact that they dont feel like they are being cheated out of their childhood?
Perhaps you are being cheated out of your adulthood by marrying later?
adorable, i doubt they feel cheated. its the norm by them. like englishman said, do we feel cheated out of adulthood? i don’t think litvish boys would feel cheated if they grew up knowing to be ready earlier.
i dont think they are ready but its thrown at them and they know that everyone else did it and managed so they will to. does that mean they are mature enough to be married?
They seem ready to me. They’ve always been doing it that way, going back many hundreds of years. They never changed. And they seem quite content and happy. May they so continue.
When Chazal say so , they mean it!!!!!
Dont Play around!!!
I think people should get married when they are ready, and able to support themselves.
I don’t think that when Chazal said “Shemoneh Esrei L’Chuppah”, they meant that someone else should pay the bills. That is simply playing house.
It also says in the Gemorah that if someone doesn’t teach his son a trade, he is bringing up a thief.
Get married at 14:
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Keddushin 30a-b
(Blatantly copied from gavra_at_work’s post on another thread.)
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