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My friend came to me all upset with a problem. Her husband has been out of a real job for ten years and will not look for new employment. He works a few hours a week but that is it.She has k”h a large family that she looks after cleans her house herself and has her own business that she tries to run. She has asked her husband to help in the house but he just says no. They have gone to rabbonim and her husbamd wont listen when they tell him to get a job. So as a friend i want to help them but what should I say to them to help them out.I dont like to get in between my friends shalom bayis issues but I see that she is suffering and I want to help her.
Sounds like he needs professional help, perhaps hes suffering from depression.
Sounds like THEY need professional help. As Gog said, he may be depressed or he may just enjoy the lifestyle he is leading. Either way, you can’t do much. It’s up to your friend. She may want to go to councaling on her own. I know women who have done this and it helps.
The two of them need counseling together and separately,and HE may be in strong need of therapy and medication. It sounds like he is clinically depressed, which is very understandable under the circumstances. If not, and if he is just enjoying the status quo and is lazy, then she has a hard decision to make. Is he at least doing SOMETHING when he is not working? Could he work in her business with her?
This is the kind of thing that wrecks marriages (and not only among the frum).
Personally, I don’t know why she stays with him – it seems that he is just an extra mouth to feed. He is certainly no mentch. If she is managing a business and her household and being a good mother to her children, there would be more Shalom Bayit without him around. JMHO.
Minyan Gal- you’re judging too quick here.
He might be a good person in other areas, and he might be a great father to his children.
He definitely needs help, but it’s still no reason to leave him YET.
You can never know if he had some terrible experience in the past that’s scaring him away from getting another job, or if he’s suffering from depression as mentioned above.
The OP didn’t indicate anything about their Shalom Bayis being worked on here.
I wish her much Hatzlacha.
I agree with MG. If the husband does not listen to daas torah, why keep him? He’s not providing in the materiel sense, and only taking. Give him a 3 month warning, and then move out if there is no improvement
Really, bpt and minyangal? If you’re going to divorce for that, you could divorce for anything! The husband could be a very nice husband and father that is going through a crisis, and needs guidance and support- NOT abandonment!
MG AND BPT. WHY ARE THERE SO MANY DIVORCES THESE DAYS?????? ppl need to work things out not just say if it doesnt improve take out the get. Unfortunely in todays day and age everyone much easier wants the “out” and on to the good life rather then working on something that SHOULD BE PERMINENT! marriage is not something to through in the garbage when things get a bit rocky!
From reading what the OP said, this is not a new situation – the man hasn’t had a real job for 10 years. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe about 10 years ago the economy was quite stable and obtaining decent jobs was not nearly as difficult as it is today. It appears that this husband is happier being one of the children than an equal partner with his wife.
It’s very hard to return to the workplace when one had been gone so long. On the contrary it would be harder for this husband to find a decent job than someone who has just been fired, because the former is less marketable.
I have no idea what the situation is, but the sketch OP provided makes him sound like exactly who divorce was made for. He is in essence wiping his tuchus with the kesubah.
Minyan gal and bpt
There’s enough divorce in our society already. Mostly because people are willing to work through their problems. Divorce should always be a last resort. Its not a quick fix…
Thanks, MG. I was going to say something along those lines.
As for those who advocate for “working it out”, few people know this / say this more vocal than me. But this can only be done when you have 2 people willing to work things thru.
By disregarding what daas torah told him, the husband is in essence saying he does not want to be a partner.
So dissolve the partnership.
bpt- It sounds like you’re looking for the easy way out. Divorce is not mean whenever someone is going through a tough time. why cant she help him and pull him out of it? if it was bothering her for 10 years then its a different story but it sounds like its a new thing thats bothering her and shes saying in hindsight that he has not had a job for 10 years.
“why cant she help him and pull him out of it?”
“it sounds like its a new thing thats bothering her”
Because even someone who has been very patient has a breaking point.
For me, the fact that he will not listen to daas torah is reason enought. Again, we are not talking about someone who is simply a shlemazel and cannot hold down a job. That happens.
Here, he is refusing to cooperate. She did not seal the case; he did.
i didnt realize that he doesnt listen to daas torah
No one should ever get divorced without daas Torah. Daas Torah didn’t tell this couple to divorce. And there is good reason for that. Divorce is terrible.
And certainly no one should ever chlila vchas encourage another person to divorce under any circumstances whatsoever. Especially an anonymous person on a forum who you have limited rose colored information on. Leave it to daas Torah.
“i didnt realize that he doesnt listen to daas torah”
It was in the op. I’ve posted the line below:
“They have gone to rabbonim and her husbamd wont listen when they tell him to get a job”
As I said earlier, few people advocate harder than I do for giving a shaky relationship a 2nd (or 3rd) try more than I do.
But providing for your family is job # 1 for a husband. If he does not do that (or does not help with household work if wife is the primary provider) he has relinquished the title husband, and needs to be put on notice.
The problem is, our society will carry him along with handouts and excuses as long as he does not turn physically violent.
Not fair, and he should be kicked out, as he has not earned the right to be there.
Go, and good riddance.
what helped me was that wife was seriously thinking of getting divorced. that was the drive behind me looking for a serious job i bh found afer little time. though i helped more than alot at home still money was one of the biiig issues. Of course counsling and evaluation if the husband is depressed or not would be more than just good
JMJ- good job that you were able to pull yourself out of that but it doesnt sound like theres much thats going to motivate her husband. I dont think she should divorce him yet but I think something really has to be worked out.
Any half normal person understands that asa u divorced ur on the street. Hell more or less loose his soroundings his kids etc. Unless his aiming for that and wants her to be the bad one
Here are my 2 cents on this one:
1) It’s very easy to condemn him because he ‘didn’t listen to da’as torah’. Whatever he was told, might not be easy for him. He may not have the skills to get a job. He may not know how to or be able to get a job that he feels is mechubadik for him. Granted, he needs to swallow his pride and do what he needs to do to provide for his family, but that may be very very difficult for him to do.
2) Not having a job for a guy is like not being able to have children for a woman (give or take- this is not a scientific observation, just a sense that I have)- it does serious damage to their self-esteem, identity and sense of self. He is probably feeling really bad about himself and about the fact that he is basically living off his wife.
3) I would say he needs some help (therapy) possibly with his wife, but definitely also by himself. If he wont go, then I would suggest the wife go on her own to see what she can do to help him. He sounds depressed and suffering from low-self esteem- both can be (somewhat) helped in therapy.
4) For starters the wife can (I know this may sound counter-intuitive, but if she wants a positive outcome and not just start the slide down towards divorce) be positive and encouraging to him. Appreciate every tiny thing he does, help him feel good about himself. Ask him for advice on her business, the kids etc. Let him be the man whenever she can. I’m sure she has done/tried these things and it may be really difficult, especially when the tension (and resentment) has grown over the years.
I’d say, bottom line, if she were my friend, I would encourage her, remind her why she married him, and how much she loves him and try and encourage her to go to therapy so that they can salvage their relationship and do what she can to get him to go as well.
Good luck and on behalf of the Klal- thanks for trying to help your friend and possibly avoid the breakdown of another home in klal yisroel.
I have not had real full time employment since the economy tanked (over 2.5 years). I do a lot of parenting and housework. B”H my wife makes enough to pay the bills. But I can’t find a job that will (if I can find one to begin with). It can be demoralizing. I sometimes feel why should I try – she will still need to work and the kids and house will get neglected.
Please understand that your friends husband may have that feeling of despondency/yiyush. I keep trying, but his situation is even more deep and may be too much for him to get out of the yiyush. Bigger family – which means bigger bills- and more time unemployed.
It sounds to me that he needs some counseling, and his wife needs to give him encouragement for whatever he does inside and outside.
“I keep trying”
That, MGD, is the difference.
bpt, refer to my previous comment:
“It’s very hard to return to the workplace when one had been gone so long. On the contrary it would be harder for this husband to find a decent job than someone who has just been fired, because the former is less marketable”.
That’s the difference between MDG and nachas’s husband
MDG: You are trying AND you are helping with the parenting and the household tasks. This is completely different than the situation presented in the OP. There are many families today where the wife is the sole breadwinner and the husband runs the home and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it if it works for that particular family. But, when the husband is a slug and does nothing, well then, that is a horse of a different color.
totally right. i was unemployed(or working mamesh only a bit) but did alot at home while my wife went to work. she just couldnt take the ol parnuse anymore and we had to switch around. but doing nothing that cant bring any good and should be taken care of immediately
Maybe the wife in the OP has to “manage” the non-working husband. He may not know what to do at home. He may think that he is doing enough or that his role in the house (as a man) is not to do housework.
She should give him a list of things to accomplish and offer help when needed. Do not look over his shoulder unless he asks for help.
“the wife in the OP has to “manage” the non-working husband”
Based on being married for 10+ years, the husband is at least 35, so no one needs to “manage” him other than himself, and the wife is not his mother.
He got a free ride till now, but its time to grow up or get out.
even if he helps at home- shouldn’t he be productive and find a job? I just cant imagine it being a good thing for a guy to stay home all day and “clean up” and take care of kids while the wife works
“I just cant imagine it being a good thing for a guy to stay home all day “
Very perceptive. And 100% accurate
bpt and adorable,
I would agree with you normally, but this case is rather unusual. I beleive in trying rehab, preferably with a professional. I beleive that he may need some guidance and incentive (prodding) that he might not have gotten. If all this has been tried, then it’s time for plan B. Until then, try to make it work.
Adorable and bpt, we live in modern times where stay-at-home dads are definitely more common. It’s not the stayng home in itself that worries me. As long as he is helping out and doing his part, there should be no problem. This husband’s issues go beyond that.
He has to get out of the house and get any job!!!
Why has no one suggested that before the wife tells him about divorce, that she should bring up contemplating divorce with her Rav or their Rav. If it is a real Rav The Rav in this situation would even be willing to make a house call to speak to the husband directly,as to what his wife is contemplating.
I know of a similar situation as described here, and once the Rabbi came to the couples house to speak to the husband directly about his wife saying marriage break up being an option things things started to change for the better As, the husband could not believe that it was so serious that his wife spoke directly to his Rebbe about how bad it was that he made a house call .There is definitely a difference between telling someone gently to get a job or help out more and being told a second time in a harsh manner.
Think of the famous story where the husband was not helping in the house and the wife complained to Rav Gifter ZTL, and Rav Gifter ZTL showed up to his talmids house the next day to take out the garbage.The talmid never refused housework again.
B)We have no idea what other mitigating factors might be present except for what has been presented here.To suggest divorce without all known facts is ludicrous.
c)I am sure at this juncture even the friend (nachas)is not fully aware, and is contemplating all after the opening thread,one week ago. Notice,there have been NO FOLLOW UPS. This is a very serious topic to give anything but constructive advice at this point with all the information that we know of (merely from a paragraph)is irresponsible.A family in distress is like a sick patient. A doctor would never suggest such drastic measures for a patient simply from a paragraph that they read about the case.
“we live in modern times”
“This husband’s issues go beyond that”
I can’t speak for Adore, but speaking for myself, and with many years experience of being a male, left alone for 10+ hours a day, hubby will get himself into mucho trouble. Modern times (or more speicficaly, modern technology) will see to that.
We need to be kept busy all day to stay out of trouble. Trust me, left to a male, housework would not be an all day job. It would be a hurdle to overcome, the faster the better, and leave the rest of the day for all sorts of bad things.
And lest you think I’m painting all us males with the same despicable brush, I’m not. And here’s why:
For the most part, 3 things keep us on the straight and narrow:
* Fear of G-d
* Respect, hakoras hatov and admiration we have for our wifes
* Society expectations of us not doing things we’re not supposed to do and doing things we are supposed to do.
The husband in our OP has demonstrated that none of the above 3 things matter to him:
He shirks the responsibity Hashem charged him with
He does not appreciate his wife’s role
He disregards what his daas torah told him to do.
Would you trust this man to be a good boy and stay out of trouble for 10 hours a day?
bpt, not entirely sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, but we seem to be somewhat on the same page. What I meant was that the staying at home itself isn’t as worrisome to me as some of the other things he is doing, like:
“He shirks the responsibity Hashem charged him with
He does not appreciate his wife’s role
He disregards what his daas torah told him to do”.
I feel that people shouldn’t overly focus on the “staying home unemployed” problem when there are bigger fish to fry.
i like be good’s 2 cents.. 🙂
I think men need to get out of the house and be productive in the otherside world. the fact that the world has so many stay-at-home-dads does not make it a normal thing! its not the way things are supposed to be! Women are supposed to be the ones taking care of the children and all the housework and the men should be the ones providing for their family. you can change that around and have them each to the other ones work but its not the way Hashem made the world. before they contemplate divorce (I think she should make it clear that shes thinking about that) she should tell him that if he can pull himself together and get a job then she would be more than happy to stay with him. a rav is a MUST in this case IMHO
adorable, You make finding a job sound like it’s easy to find, but from your experience I’m sure you know better. And I am also sure that a young lady is way more marketable than a man who has been out of work for many years and has surely lost his work ethic.
And getting a job would be like putting a band aid on a boo boo, when he has bigger underlying issues to deal with…
I dont think its easy to get a job but he must try his best to get some sort of job. I dont think its easy but there has to be a will to work and he’ll find something….I realize that there is a bigger issue here but let me tell you from experience that the first step to depression….is when you dont have a job and fell good about yourself.
My 2 cents – They both need to go to marriage therapy ASAP. He might need his own therapy and to see a Psychiatrist.
My bewilderment is that so many posters are saying divorce him. Now I know my case isn’t one in a million. How can any of you tell s/o else what is good for them, esp. the ones who are younger? What credentials do you have to Judge up what is best for both of them? Let’s say this women listens to all your advice and gets divorced and goes OTD. Do you think you have done a Mitzva or a Big Aveira with your advice? Divorce is only indicated when a professional therapist says this is the only way to go – as a last resort!
I’m not young, and I’m one of the biggest advocates for working on a tough situation.
The husband in this case refuses to cooperate. Even so, my vote is to give him the choice to work on himself, or at least try.
10 years is a long time to be tolerant. And the kids are seeing this neglect, so that is only poisoning them to the bargain. If he does not want to be an active partner, its his doing, not ours, not hers.
It should also be noted, that his “joblessness” is 10 years, which might mean the first 5 years of marraige went unemployed as well, where he did little to help out. So in all likelyhood, we are dealing with someone in the 35-40 year old range.
If he has not taken his responsibilites seriously till now, its doubtfull he will turn a new leaf at this age.
Proffesional help will delay the process, and cost $$$.
If the family daas torah says to bail, (or wait 6 months to see if there is improvement) I’d take that at face value.
Sad story, but not one that needs to keep being sad.
adorable, He doesn’t just need a job. He needs a dignified job so that he can feel good about himself and bring in money, and perhaps spend more time caring for his family than thinking of himself. But that won’t just happen overnight. There alot of issues that have to be dealt with, and even if it (hopefully) can be done, the family is gonna be in it for a long ride.
MG & BPT:
Do you realize that you are advocating a divorce based on a 9 line, second-hand account of the story? Don’t you think that’s jumping to conclusions rather fast? As others have pointed out, he may still be being a good father and a good person. Or he may be depressed and with some professional help he could be back on his toes. You simply have no way of knowing.
BPT – “The husband in this case refuses to cooperate. Even so, my vote is to give him the choice to work on himself, or at least try.
10 years is a long time to be tolerant. And the kids are seeing this neglect, so that is only poisoning them to the bargain. If he does not want to be an active partner, its his doing, not ours, not hers.
If he has not taken his responsibilites seriously till now, its doubtfull he will turn a new leaf at this age.
Proffesional help will delay the process, and cost $$$.”
Talking about not being Dan L’caf Zecus!
How do you know -“he refuses to cooperate” because the wife says so or because the wife said the Rov said so?
How do you know – “If he has not taken his responsibilites seriously till now” because the wife says so or because the wife said the Rov said so?
“Proffesional help will delay the process, and cost $$$.”
If you take all her comments at face value, then you MIGHT be correct. I know there are always two or three sides to every story. The best advice is to seek marital counselling and perhaps for him to go to his own therapist and psychiatrist! Ten, twenty, fifty years are long times, but if he suffers from mental illness and never got treated -doesn’t mean the treatment won’t help! It’s never too late to change. And sometimes a person needs professional help to facilitate this change. Throwing him out with the trash will cause more problems than trying to do whatever possible to save the marriage!
MW13 and Health –
You are both making valid points. My comments are based on what the OP says, and I have no reason to doubt her. Face it, its not that uncommon in our circles to find husbands that are allowing their wives to bear the burden of both the homemaker AND the breadwinner.
True, everyone deserves a 2nd chance, and mental help when they need it. But in the meantime, the wife dreads each day she wakes up and has to look at this lump of coal.
I say coal, because under the right conditions, coal could turn into a diamond.
But right now, he’s a burden, and refuses help or to make an effort.
The larger point I was hoping to get across is not so much to the wife in this particular example. What I was hoping to do is put an end to the notion that men can shirk their responsibilities and be confident that the wife will cover for them and tolerate them.
I see this as no different than physical abuse. Once you know that not everyone will stay quiet, its makes you think twice before doing something hurtful.
But I still stick with the 6 month deadline. If he is willing to work things out, she will surely give him the chance.(L-rd knows, she’s given him 10+ years!)
If he won’t (or can’t) work things out, she /the kids should have the option to have a fresh start.
BPT – “My comments are based on what the OP says, and I have no reason to doubt her.”
Why? Because the wife says so or because the wife said the Rov said so?
He BTW, also has a Chezkas Kashrus beside the fact “its not that uncommon in our circles to find husbands that are allowing their wives to bear the burden of both the homemaker AND the breadwinner”!
“But I still stick with the 6 month deadline. If he is willing to work things out, she will surely give him the chance.”
Memana Shuch, if he is willing to go for couselling, you wait until the therapist says so. If the therapist says he is progressing, so then you keep waiting. If he isn’t willing to go for therapy, why wait six months? She shouldn’t stick around even now!
“(L-rd knows, she’s given him 10+ years!)”
Like I posted before – the time until now doesn’t make a difference, a person can turn over a new leaf with the help of professionals. Unless the professionals say there is no use and btw this situation is very, very rare. Mental Health professionals can help almost anyone. But I find your attitude to be pervasive in the Frum community by a lot of people even some who are Rabbonim. Stop judging up others unless you are experienced in marital counselling. There are Some Rabbonim and therapists who are. And just like there are doctors whom are specialists, there are Rabbonim and therapists who specialize in marital counselling and/or advice!
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