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Hi okay first of all this isnt directed at anyone, and ive been meaning to discuss this for a long time.
First of all i have a frum family and frum background so this is not a rant or hate at frum people.
I dress like a regular yid, not a fry out, nor do i talk like a fry out, so people cant say
maybe the problem is the way you come across.But for example if im in a frum bakers, ill find myself standing at the front, and a bunch of satmar women will just walk right in front of me, ask
how much is thisand then proceed to pay, whilst im clearly there at the front of the cue.I also find when going into frum judaica stores, i get a sort of cold, unwelcoming stare like they are doing me a favour serving me.
I have peyos, i dont walk in with a baseball cap or swearing or talking in slang so once again people cant say that the problem is the way i come across.
I find though that when i go into a non jewish shop or a non frum shop, more often than not ill get a hello and goodbye, but i seem to rarely get that in frum shops.
It shouldnt be like this, and im just wanting to know why, and if anyone else thinks that some ultra orthodox yidden can tend to be clique like, ie if you dont fit into their specific chassidus, or dont wear a streimal, your to be treated like an outside.
I welcome any replies.
Chaim
When I davened is Satmar as a visitor one Friday night, almost every mispallel asked me if I have a place and invited me to their home for the seuda.
And I am the furthest thing from being chasidish, including dress. So I really don’t know what you are talking about. You wouldn’t find that anywhere else.
Yes. I’m in a clique with close to seven billion other people.
The Wolf
Yes. So is every other group.
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Minyan gal coined:
“You don’t have to be frum to be a mentch, but you must be a mentch to be frum.”
“when i go into a non jewish shop or a non frum shop, more often than not ill get a hello and goodbye, but i seem to rarely get that in frum shops.”
Yup,same here. How can we change that? Anyone have ideas?
Hi Chaim! How r u today?
Maybe u should greet them with a smile first. Be warm to THEM and break up any discomfort. If u r a friendly, polite, warm person u will probably b surrounded by ppl bein friendly, warm, polite back.
Yes, many are, but by no means all. I’ve mentioned many times that some frum people think that manners are a davar assur. Not much we can do about it. The point is that it’s up to the rest of us to keep them in the minority by acting different.
mod, I’m surprised that 2 lines above were allowed to go through, after the discussion on the other thread about onaas dvorim.
hey chaim, i totally agree with you. its not like that in all groups but its definitely there alot of the time. like some other guy said, try to be freindly first, and they will catch on
good luck
When I walked through Williamsburgh about as fast as I could, realizing I was late for a minyan on the Lower East Side coming from (and by my dress obviously coming from) Crown Heights, people went out of their way to wish me git Shabbos. One Chussid in particular who really looked like he was racing against the clock made it a point to turn all the way around and wish me git Shabbos as he was running to his shul. Some WB’ers, like Yerushalmim, are a bit direct, but they are not davka rude.
In NY, people are aggressive. If it looks like you’re just lounging around on line, they think you’re waiting to ask someone something and they’ll cut so they can pay quickly and get out. That goes for all New Yorkers, not just Jews. Here where I live now, people are so lazy and disorganized that I have inadvertently cut because the line was so sloppy, and gotten away with it.
I think that a lot of Frum people feel they can’t make it in our society, if they aren’t part of a clique!
“ill find myself standing at the front, and a bunch of satmar women will just walk right in front of me, ask how much is this and then proceed to pay, whilst im clearly there at the front of the cue”
As a limud zchus, I’d like to point out that frum culture, particularly chareadi/chassidish culture, has been heavily influnced by the (to put in nicely) more informal Israeli culture.
A Rebbi of mine once told over a story from one of his first days in Israel, when somebody walked over to him and shoved him in the back so hard he almost fell. Turning around, he was shocked to see the man just keep walking as though nothing had happened. But after this happened several times, he came to the realization that this was the Israeli way of saying “excuse me”.
When you go into a jewish store I supposed you exepect MORE from the store than normal, if you go into a goysih store and they are rude or not rude or not nice , you just ignore it. But when you go into a jewish store I guess you expect more so if the clerk treats you (without niceness or rudeness) you are upset
I also think when you go into a goyish store and the clerk is a female, they are told to look you in the eye , smile , and say thanks .
Frum women are not supposed to do this and are generally supposed to say as minimal as possible to the male customers. This is not rude but it seems like it when compared to a goyish store.
As a test talk to a friend, Ask him to look you in the eye ,smile and make some small talk, then ask the same friend Not to smile, look away from you and say as minimal as possible. You will notice the difference.
mw13, that story is nauseating and I can’t see any halachic limud zchus in that story other than “oy larasha oy lishcheino”, as in last week’s parsha. There is absolutely no excuse for acting like a common ape instead of a human being.
Chaim,
First, you didn’t write where you were referring to, though your writing indicated the Eastern side of the Atlantic Ocean. However, if you were referring to NY and you are from, say England, please realize that New York is a busy place and NYers act that way. Think “Erev Shabbos”, 30 minutes to Shabbos. If someone needs your help, you might be happy to help even though you are under pressure to get some things done before Shabbos but that is not the time for needless small talk. I am not precisely defining this, but that should be somewhat accurate. As far as I’ve seen, this is a uniquely NY phenomenon, and it definitely has its advantages, though there is a down-side, too.
Besides for the above, I think there is a certain “familiar familial” feeling that is present at some of these establishments, which precludes the ability to serve customers the way they do in the (secular) world at large.
In other words, I get the feeling that in Jewish stores in heavily Jewish areas they expect that, like family, you would let them know if you need something but that, also like family, you don’t expect to be wined and dined since you could simply “help yourself” and, to an appropriate extent, “make yourself at home” and simply “speak up”.
I think the gender thing is also an issue, but this doesn’t explain your experiences if your counter-person was male.
BTW its not just a jewish thing. Many Korean stores were known from their culture to put the change on the counter and felt nothing of it.
People were used to having the change put in their hands and felt the money on the counter was rude, even though it wasnt
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