Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Getting Rid of the Status of Moser
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June 24, 2011 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #597611WolfishMusingsParticipant
A few weeks ago, there was a car alarm that was blaring outside my window at two in the morning. Neither my wife nor I were able to sleep — and we both had places we needed to be in the morning. I didn’t know who the car belonged to, but since it’s a heavily Jewish neighborhood, there’s probably a better than even chance the car belonged to a Jew.
After about an hour, I finally lost my patience and called the police. They came, did their thing, and the alarm stopped.
Later on, I was wondering about what I did and realized that I am now probably a moser, since they probably at least gave the guy a ticket.
The question is, how does one get rid of the status of “moser?” Or am I now stuck with it for the rest of my life?
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #780475Pac-ManMemberAsk the car owner for mechila.
June 24, 2011 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #780476klachMember“v’chol hakodem lehargo zocheh” Congratulations.
June 24, 2011 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #780477klachMemberThe shulchan aruch says there are times where you are allowed to call the malchus on a guy, which includes certain instances where he is causing you a continuous hezek and there is no other way to stop it. See the meforshim for further details.
June 24, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #780478WolfishMusingsParticipantAsk the car owner for mechila.
A. I don’t know who the owner of the car is. If I knew, I would have knocked in his door that night and asked him to shut off the alarm.
B. Even if I did know and ask mechila, would I no longer be a moser? If I put someone in jail (granted, that’s not this case, it’s just an example) and he says “no, it’s okay, I deserved it,” then I’m off the hook?
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #780479WolfishMusingsParticipant“v’chol hakodem lehargo zocheh” Congratulations.
Translate, please. Not all of us are Hebrew/Yiddish experts.
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #780480veteranMemberWhy do you think they even got a ticket? When police are summoned to get involved in a “disturbance of the peace” such as loud music or crowds gathering on local streets they generally do not give tickets. If someone resists it can lead to arrest, but I’ve never heard of giving tickets to solve the problem. So you didn’t cause him a financial loss and you are not a moiser.
June 24, 2011 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #780481on the ballParticipantI heard b’shem R’ Matisyahu Salomon Shlita that if someone is breaking the law and there is no viable alternative to calling the non-jewish authorities, there is no din Moser. This should be checked with LOr of course, but if you think about it – it makes sense and also the references to Moser in Shas etc. are all cases where the guy is innocent.
June 24, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #780482Pac-ManMemberStand by the car until he comes.
Yes, he can be mochel you.
June 24, 2011 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #780483WolfishMusingsParticipantknocked in
Sorry… that should have been “knocked on.” Unfortunate typo.
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #780484WolfishMusingsParticipantWhy do you think they even got a ticket? When police are summoned to get involved in a “disturbance of the peace” such as loud music or crowds gathering on local streets they generally do not give tickets. If someone resists it can lead to arrest, but I’ve never heard of giving tickets to solve the problem. So you didn’t cause him a financial loss and you are not a moiser.
I was under the impression that a person can get a ticket for that. I don’t know if they did or didn’t. Even if they didn’t, I certainly didn’t know that when I called. I called fully expecting that there was a good chance that they would.
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #780485Pac-ManMemberon the ball: Incorrect. It is still mesira even if the guy is guilty.
June 24, 2011 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #780486WolfishMusingsParticipantno viable alternative
I guess I *could* have called my rav at two in the morning to ask him what to do. So, in retrospect, I suppose that I had alternatives (even if they were unpleasant ones).
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #780487veteranMemberWolfish-
What klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
June 24, 2011 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #780489WolfishMusingsParticipantStand by the car until he comes.
This was a few weeks ago. The car is long gone and I probably wouldn’t even recognize it again if I saw it.
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #780490WolfishMusingsParticipantWhat klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
Ah, thanks.
Klach — are you indicating that you want some merit? If so, I’ll accommodate you.
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #780491☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI can’t cite sources, but AFAIK mesirah applies even if the party is guilty. However, it is sometimes muttar (obviously, AYLOR) when beis din is not an option. This might be such a case.
I don’t think they give tickets for car alarms (although they might technically be able to, I don’t know for sure).
I also can’t imagine (again, sorry, no source) that one can’t do teshuva on this.
Wolf, you are usually an advocate of AYLOR; could you please let us know what he says?
June 24, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #780492gavra_at_workParticipantI have a MOreh Heter.
The din is Avid Inish Dina D’Nafshei B’Makom P’saidah. As such, you are within your rights to break into the car and rip out the battery, thereby stopping the alarm. By using a proxy, you saved the owner money (even with a ticket), and are not Chayiv.
See, easy fix.
June 24, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #780493☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantWhat klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
I believe it’s an exact quote. I do not believe that it applies here.
June 24, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #780494WolfishMusingsParticipantAs such, you are within your rights to break into the car and rip out the battery, thereby stopping the alarm. By using a proxy, you saved the owner money (even with a ticket), and are not Chayiv.
I don’t think it works that way. The point of mesirah is informing (or giving over his money) to non-Jews. It’s not about incurring a loss. After all, if I ripped out his battery, I’d be causing him a loss, but it’s not mesirah. My point is that while the two are related, they aren’t the same. Just because I could have done it myself doesn’t mean that it’s not mesirah if I call the cops to do it.
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #780495charliehallParticipantThe cost of the ticket is probably less than the cost of the hours of your last sleep. He should be asking YOU for mechila.
June 24, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #780496WolfishMusingsParticipantThe cost of the ticket is probably less than the cost of the hours of your last sleep. He should be asking YOU for mechila.
That’s a separate issue altogether.
The Wolf
June 24, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #780497charliehallParticipantMy wife once had to call the police about someone who was illegally blocking our driveway. It was a possible pikuach nefesh issue as she is a physician there was the possibility that she might have been called into the hospital in an emergency.
June 24, 2011 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #780498☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI have a MOreh Heter.
I also had a Morah Heather. She was Morah Leah’s assistant. ?
June 24, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #780499cleverjewishpunMemberWasnt the whole concept of being a “moser” something that shouldnt really apply anymore in a “malchus shel chesed” like America?
There are laws here that protect all citizens equally and it’s not like back in the shtetl where you could be arrested and detained for any offensive real or imagined.
This whole business of not getting the cops involved, from minor disputes to full fledged aiding and abetting of child molesters seems really misplaced here.
Unless people are more concerned with the public perception of the religious community, then the whole situation starts making more sense.
*cue posters with ancedotal evidence about how American jurisprudence is really all very anti-semtic*
And for heavens sake, please dont throw SMR @ me.
June 24, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #780500Patur Aval AssurParticipant“What klach said is a paraphrase of the Rambam’s endorsement of killing a moiser. It means “whoever kills him first gets the merit”.
I believe it’s an exact quote. I do not believe that it applies here.”
If he is in fact a moser, why wouldn’t it apply?
June 24, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #780501☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantPAA,
I don’t think he’s a moser, certainly not a vaday (certain).
(If he’s a safek moser, he’d be patur aval assur ?.)
June 24, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #780502gavra_at_workParticipantJust because I could have done it myself doesn’t mean that it’s not mesirah if I call the cops to do it.
Not true. The cops can be your shaliach if you can do it yourself, and we say Yesh Shliach Lechumra, and the ticket (based on NYC budget cuts) is only a means to pay for the work done.
June 24, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #780503I can only tryMemberA couple of points / thoughts:
June 24, 2011 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #780504on the ballParticipantPac man – a source?
June 24, 2011 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #780505Patur Aval AssurParticipant“I don’t think he’s a moser, certainly not a vaday (certain).
(If he’s a safek moser, he’d be patur aval assur ?.)”
The original question asked by Mr. Wolf was how can he get rid of his moser status. Which means that he is taking for granted that he is a moser.
June 24, 2011 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #780506veteranMemberIt is not an exact quote, and the Rambam says it does apply. Two strikes. Open up a hilchos chovel umazik perek 8.
June 24, 2011 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #780507shlishiMemberWhat was his other strike?
June 24, 2011 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #780508veteranMemberDaasYochid
I believe it’s an exact quote. I do not believe that it applies here.
Count ’em yourself.
June 24, 2011 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #780509Patur Aval AssurParticipant“and the Rambam says it does apply.”
The Rambam discusses a case of calling the police for a car alarm which may or may not have resulted in a ticket?
June 24, 2011 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #780510deiyezoogerMemberThe din of “Kol hakodem l’horgoi” only applies BEFORE one is commiting mesirah in order to stop him, once he commited mesirah there is no point in killing him and is not allowed except if one has a chazakah of mesirah (3 times) because then we can assume he will do it again. (see Ch”M 333)
June 24, 2011 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #780511☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantHere’s the Ramba”m,
? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????, ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????. ????? ?????? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ?????? ???? ??–??? ???? ???? ?????, ?????? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ?????. ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??, ??? ??????–???? ??????; ??? ????? ??????, ???.
Not an exact quote, true, it says zacha, not zoche. That’s not a paraphrase, it’s a misspelling.
That phrase is referring to a moser, and since I am maintaining that someone who calls the police to have them shut off someone’s car alarm is not a moser, it doesn’t apply here.
Please find me the Ramba”m which says that calling the cops for a car alarm is mesirah.
Boy, tough crowd.
June 24, 2011 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #780512metrodriverMemberPac Man; Maybe the car owner should ask mechillah of all the residents whose sleep he/she disturbed. Gezel Sheinah is considered Gezel.
June 24, 2011 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #780513☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantPAA,
Thanks, I posted before yours was on the board.
And you’re correct, I didn’t mean to answer according to the OP’s assumption.
June 24, 2011 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #780514Ben LeviParticipantI beleive that Rashi in the begining of Parshas mishpotim states clearly that Mesira is ossur and a Chillul Hashem even in cases where the “arkous” (goyishe courts) have the exact same laws as Beis Din.
In addition I believe that there is a teshuva between Rav Elyashiv shlita and Rav Feivel Cohen shlita in which they both clearly state that from a halachic standpoint Hilchos Mesira are fully applicable in America.
However I would hesitate to think Mesirah applied in your case since the intent was simply to have the police have the person shut his alarm and not to administer an “oinesh” however please consult your LOR who is knowledgeable in this area of Halacha.
June 24, 2011 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #780515Pac-ManMembermetrodriver: I answered Wolf based upon on his self-declaration of wrongdoing, and per his request for information on how to atone. I’ve learned better than to try to talk Wolf out of thinking he is World Sinner #1 or even simply that what he declared as sinful is anything but.
June 24, 2011 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #780516Pac-ManMemberPlease find me the Ramba”m which says that calling the cops for a car alarm is mesirah.
Al pi pashtus veteran would appear to be correct. Why should it not be so considered – or anything other than simple mesira for that matter – barring extenuating circumstances? If you want to argue against veteran’s assertion of mesira based on that the alarm was waking him up, you need to state that in your defense.
June 25, 2011 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #780517600 Kilo BearMemberProbably not mesira, but if there is Chaverim in your area, the right thing to do would have been to call them first and see if they could help.
June 26, 2011 2:46 am at 2:46 am #780518☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantIf you want to argue against veteran’s assertion of mesira based on that the alarm was waking him up, you need to state that in your defense.
Yes that, and the fact that a ticket was not his intention, nor a definite consequence.
I don’t necessarily know that it was muttar to call the police; what I am saying is simply that it would have to be vaday mesirah for the din of ??? ????? ??????, ??? to apply.
June 26, 2011 4:27 am at 4:27 am #780519Patur Aval AssurParticipant“Gezel Sheinah is considered Gezel.”
Really? Gezel Sheina is not mentioned even once in all of shas and poskim. The first mention of it is in sefarim within the past hundred or so years. (There is however a concept of hezek shaina – see bava basra and the meiri)
June 26, 2011 4:40 am at 4:40 am #780520sheinMemberThe first mention of it is in sefarim within the past hundred or so years.
And the sefarim of the past hundred years are chopped liver that made things up??
June 26, 2011 4:44 am at 4:44 am #780521real-briskerMemberWhat is needed in order to create the status moser? Just by calling the police automaticly create someone a moser?
June 26, 2011 4:53 am at 4:53 am #780522adocsParticipantare people here actually suggesting that this situation is one where the so-called moser (not even sure the label of moser applies here) is subject to being killed justifiably? for calling a cop about a car alarm? has anyone here actually asked a rav about this particular type of situation, and been told that this even qualifies as mesira?
June 26, 2011 5:05 am at 5:05 am #780523HaLeiViParticipantReb Patur, that is the actual Halachik status. Gezel Shina is just a fancy name for that type of Hezek.
June 26, 2011 10:22 am at 10:22 am #780524mexipalParticipanti am far from a posek so call your local rav. however, i will say one thing. the siman in shulchan aruch that klach quoted (C”M 388 )definitely sounds like there is no mesira in this case. (metzair rabim)
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