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Do we really need Mechitzas, for eating (not talking about dancing) at weddings? I read that R’ Moshe held we do not need a mechitza.
“Reb Moshe Feinstein [10] favours the approach that there is no obligation for a mechitza for ordinary gatherings including weddings. He proves this from the laws of Pesach. The paschal lamb, could not be eaten in separate groups. A number of families (sometimes up to forty or fifty) would combine to eat the same sacrifice [11]. There were certainly men and women eating together without a mechitza.
Also, the Gemora [12] writes of the bride turning to the side to eat so as not be embarrassed. Clearly it was not from her father or brothers that she was embarrassed but from other men who were present at the meal.
Reb Moshe therefore rules that a mechitza is required only if two criteria are fulfilled. First, there must be a gathering of men and women – excluding a situation of a single woman entering (Chana prayed at the Beis Hamikdosh next to Eli the High Priest, without a mechitza).
Second, the gathering must be for a matter of sanctity (dovor shebikdusha) such as davening. (Reb Moshe, therefore, would seem to maintain that the simchas beis hasho’eivo and the future eulogy mentioned in the Gemora were considered matters of sanctity, but that a wedding is not.) “
Amazing. Unbelievable. I can’t believe it.
Oh, I mean that a Chabad site would quote R Moshe Feinstein.
I think if Reb Moshe Ztl would be alive today, he would definitely rule yes to machitzis even for eating only! we have enough tzoros in klal yisroel with all the mingling as it is!
I would like to point out to “nishtdayngesheft” who writes:
“Amazing. Unbelievable. I can’t believe it. Oh, I mean that a Chabad site would quote R Moshe Feinstein.”
Please note that the Lubavitcher Rebbe and Reb Moshe Feinstein, ZT”L had a very warm and cordial relationship. As a minor proof;
please look at Igros Moshe (Orach Chaim Vol. I, siman 92)where Reb Moshe writes a response to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, and addresses him in a highly respectable manner:
??”? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ? ???? ??
??”? ????? ???”? ????? ??????? ??????”? ????????? ????”? ?????”? ???????????.
Todays time may require more diligent seperation because of the influence society has had in breaking down our internal midah of modesty.
Aside from which husbands want a mechitza so they can eat whatever they want without having to answer afterwards why they are not careful with weight!
i come from a family with all guys besides myself.
i always liked to watch the men dance coz it is my own family
The problem is that once the dancing starts, there will be men who are seated on the women’s side of dancing who will stay at their table while the women dance there. Unless all of the seating would be on the men’s side of dancing.
On Tu be’Av, they walked around in circles and did not realy dance.
Even though it may be only a middas hassidus to have a mechitza for eating, it is a very good and necessary chumra — because of the way a lot of women dress. Namely, they are dressed to kill. Even if it were not the case, it would be good to have it — “kol makom she’ata motze geder erva, ata motze kedusha”.
The Arizal explains that at the simcha on Tu B’Av there was not literally women dancing.
It’s bad enough as it is even with the mechitza, with men going into the woman’s section and r”l watching their dancing at a wedding and with women congregating in the men’s section at the wedding. The mechitza gets pushed around too much as it is, and it too frequently gets opened and even pushed out of place in parts of its length.
Pac Man, MDD, perhaps it is the shitah of the Arizal that they didn’t dance, but chazal say they did in gemoro Tannis daf lamed alef omud alef.
Both in the mishna and in the gemoro, neither Rashi nor Tosefos brings any indication that the young women of Jerusalem were doing anything other than dancing. (I just looked to be sure).
I’ve learned the Meiri’s interpretation of this in the past, and he doesn’t indicate it was anything other than dancing either. In fact, if I recall correctly, he says they would dance and call out to the prospective husbands ‘kfi ma shemargishos beotzman’ according to how they felt about themselves in that situation.
The Chasam Sofer in Toras Moshe on Parshas Veyeilech also indicates they were dancing, as the gemoro says.
Some say that because of the nearness to the deprivation of Tisha B’av, there was little chashash of losing self control. (Brought in Sefer Hatodo’oh).
So – we have mishna, gemoro, rishonim and achronim indicating that they were indeed dancing. Now, I’m not going to say this means that everyone should interpret it that all simcha dancing should happen without a mechitzah – obviously. But I will point out the clear kal vechomer that if seeing women dance was permitted for the purpose of shiduchin, seeing them eat would seem to be obviously mutar.
Edited
Could us people kindly remind ourselves of who we’re talking about. Those same girls (still available) danced once more. When?! Right. On the holiest day of the year, Yom Kippur. OBVIOUSLY both bochurim and girls had something else in mind. Could we compare s=ourselves to that generation. The Kedusha and Tahara! Rabbi Miller says (somewhere), boys went to pick a girl then, like one inspects and buys an esrog nowadays. Their lives were filled with holiness, he married to fulfill Ratzon HaShem, he sought the most perfect one for that tafkid. If we’d have that mindset, we’d be in great shape.
Yichusdik, they went on a “machol” — dancing in circles(look in Rashi there). That type of dancing might not be assur to watch. Real “rikud” is, as far as I understand.Plus,in addition, those girls were single and non-niddos.
Secondly, I did not say it’s obligatory to have a mechitza for eating. It is a good chumra, especially, because of the way many women dress — namely, dressed to kill. Look at the beginning of Yishaya and in the relevant Gemora in Shabbos to see what Chazal had to say about it.
Zeeskite, i think you take it too far.It is clear from the Gemora that they were makpid on looks.
Anon1mous, restaurants? Not a bad idea(again, espec. because of the way some women are dressed). At home? Depends.
mdd:
Rabbi Miller says that, not I. Besides, they did have somewhat a dagash on looks, again, just like one looks for perfection on an esrog! However, if I remember some said: ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??????.
Could us people kindly remind ourselves of who we’re talking about. Those same girls (still available) danced once more. When?! Right. On the holiest day of the year, Yom Kippur. OBVIOUSLY both bochurim and girls had something else in mind. Could we compare s=ourselves to that generation. The Kedusha and Tahara! Rabbi Miller says (somewhere), boys went to pick a girl then, like one inspects and buys an esrog nowadays. Their lives were filled with holiness, he married to fulfill Ratzon HaShem, he sought the most perfect one for that tafkid. If we’d have that mindset, we’d be in great shape.
****official winner of the post of the month award****
thank you for bringing EMES here, for a change.
Good Shabbos
That proof from the Korbon Pesach is amazing, so why Taka do chasidim eat separately at home.
proof from how our Fathers conducted themselve in those days as to how we must conduct ourselves today is far from amazing.
Let me remind everyone of the famous gemora with Rav Yochanan, BB 91:
???? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????
We are not on that level.
yeshiva guy
I have metioned many times having a mechitza and not just being separate is a machlokes HaPoskim (Basicly Chassidim vs. Litvaks). It stems from a question regarding what happened by the Simchas Bais Hashoeva.
Listen to Rabbi Frands Shiur on this. # 3 on Kol Haloshon under Parshas Shelach.
Not all chasidim eat seperately when only their own family is present.
R’ Moshe did not say you should not machmir. Plus, he was not the only Posek out there.
“R’ Moshe did not say you should not machmir.”
And Rav Moshe zt’l did not say that we should wear pants.
“Plus, he was not the only Posek out there.”
A little kavod hatorah please.
I did not get the part about the pants.
“Rav Moshe addressed the Lubavitcher Rebbe in a very respectable manner.”
What does this prove? Rav Moshe addressed everyone in a very respectable manner.
Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld (amongst others) held that mechitzos are required at weddings.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46247&st=&pgnum=192
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46247&st=&pgnum=193
Most important consideration is whatever it takes to facilitate single men & women meeting up and this is:- “Chasuno Gorreres Chasunoh” [wedding causes more weddings] as well as reduces Shidduch crisis.
If you are sitting at an awards dinner listening to boring speeches or staring blankly at powerpoint presentations then sitting together is not a problem; however if you are in an environment where liquor is being served, music is playing loudly and there is a call to dance, if men and women are seated together one can certainly be concerned that it may lead to mixed dancing.
I protest. Someone was surprised a Chabad site quotes Rabbi Feinstein…?
You live a very sheltered life.
My Chabad shule quotes the Steipler Gaon. I know an Ashkanazi haredi who frequently quotes the Ben Ish Chai.
The chabad vs ashkanazi vs sefardi mentality ended eons ago.
Myself, a Chabad, I know more stores of the Steipler Gaon’s life and halachic responsa of Rabbi Feinstein than ashkanazis. I remember their astonishment. Quite funny, actually.
The old division was a waste of time. Are there separate sections in Gan Edan for sefardi and ashkanazi speakers?
Same ocean. Different boat. Ha!
“Are there separate sections in Gan Eden for sefardi and ashkanazi speakers?”
You’ll have to visit and report back to us about that one.
“Myself, a Chabad, I know more stores of the Steipler Gaon’s life and halachic responsa of Rabbi Feinstein than ashkanazis. I remember their astonishment. Quite funny, actually. “
Very funny. Since when is Chabad not Ashkenazi?
Chabad is not Ashkanazi. The siddur and minhagim differ noticeably enough.
It is OSSUR to be a wedding where ther is no mechitza it might lead to hirhurim that are assur.
Chabad is not Ashkanazi. The siddur and minhagim differ noticeably enough.
I think you might be confusing davening Nusach Ashkenaz with being ethnically Ashkenazi.
Most members of Chabad *are* Ashkenazim, even if they don’t daven Nusach Ashkenaz. Likewise, many Ashkenazim daven Nusach Sefard despite not being Sefardim.
The Wolf
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