Pouring Wine/Grape Juice Back Into The Container

Some wine is poured into the kos first so that the wine should no longer be “pagum”. Any time one drinks from a kos, the remaining wine is pagum and should not be used for a subsequent kiddush. Pouring some more wine in “fixes” the pagum wine.

For kiddush, the person who said kiddush should drink a “m’lo lugmov”, but if he can’t, someone else can.

For havdalah, one must drink a r’viis, to avoid a shailah about a bracha acharona. Actually, one should never drink more than a “m’lo lugmov” but less than a r’viis for the same reason.

I think he meant that to avoid having to make a bracha achrona you should never drink more than m’lo lugmov.

But if you are comfortable with thanking G-d for the wine that you’ve drunk, there is no problem.

The chassidim have a minhag of pouring off wine from kiddush for another reason.

They want to have kedushsas shabbos in the havdala to take them throughout the week..

I think he meant that to avoid having to make a bracha achrona you should never drink more than m’lo lugmov.

What I meant was that there’s a machlokes whether the shiur for a bracha achrona is a m’lo lugmov or a r’viis. If you drink more than a m’lo lugmov but less than a r’viis, it’s a shaila whether or not a bracha achrona is required, which leaves you in a catch-22; if you say the bracha achrona, it might be a bracha l’vatala, and if you don’t, you may have skipped a required bracha. To avoid the shaila, one should either drink less than a m’lo lugmov, and not say the bracha achrona, or drink more than a r’viis and say the bracha achrona.

For havdalah, to drink less than a m’lo lugmov is not an option (just as one must drink a m’lo lugmov for kiddush), so you should drink a r’viis.

Does drinking the havdalla kos cause one to grow a beard? Does it do this to women too?

Yes. But most people don’t have the money to waste in boiling down the silver every week after havdallah, so practically speaking its just not worth it.

Women aren’t able to metabolize silver as well as men, so no.

wine used to be very strong and it was mixed/diluted with water mozeg as in the haggadah

Wasn’t there a thread about this once?

Probably. There has probably been a thread about almost every possible topic, with the exception of specific current events.

In real coffee rooms, it’s the same way.

DY – This isn’t a real coffe room?

No, but it’s virtually the same thing.

r-b,

That makes two of us.

And where does the minhug of first pouring a drop of water from the becher into the wine/grape juice bottle before then pouring the wine/grape juice into the becher, come from?

The Ta’amei Haminhugim quotes the Elyah Rabbah that wine brings “y’lala” (weeping) to the world; when water is added, it changes it to bracha. He then quotes the S’fas Emes that wine represents gevurah, whereas water represents chessed.

Not I:”The chassidim have a minhag of pouring off wine from kiddush for another reason”

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The MB is mifurash on the subject of kos pagum. With regard to many people drinking from one cup, the shaar tzion says its ok, but if you want to pour into a different cup you must add wine. Or you can pour to another cup and then drink from the kos.

Food for thought.

The grape juice bottles are not Toiveled. The manufacturer is not mechuyev to Toivel them because they are merely using them as a means of transporting the grape juice to its consumers, and as such, is not mechuyev Tevila. And for this reason we are not required to Toivel candy dishes and other glassware that we give as gifts to others (think Mishloach Manos).

It is a given that if you wish to reuse the grape juice bottle for other purposes, that you are now using it as an official Keili, and you are required to toivel it. However, as long as you keep on slowly emptying the original bottle, you are not required to Toivel it (otherwise we would be required to empty our grape juice bottles right away).

So, for those that pour Kiddush grape juice BACK into the bottle in order to have them for Havdalla, aren’t you in fact “re-using” the bottle to hold this grape juice until Motzei Shabbos?

Thoughts to keep in mind: A container that keeps food for storage is not required to be Toiveled, however, a container which is brought to the table does require to be Toiveled. (Think sugar dispenser, which needs to be Toiveled, vs. the large sugar container, from which you would pour into the dispenser, which does not require to be Toiveled).

So, let’s hear it, guys!

Longerekel:”It is certainly pagum in the original cup and cannot be used another time as a kos shel bracha”

How and when is your writing relevent? If one needs a “kos sholem” for the next kos shel brocho, anyway one has to add more wine or water and therefore it isn’t pagum any longer. If you wish to use a heiche timtze that he puts into the cup a whole unpeeled egg to bring it into a kos sholem, how do you know in the same cup it is certainly pagum with the subsequent brocho.

“It is not pagum with regard to the original bracha, only with regard to a subsequent bracha”

Question: If a second person who was not yotzei with the mevurech’s brocho, can he make his own brocho and the drinking will or will not be kos pagum (since it is a “subsequent brocho”) .

LeiderLeider: In reference to tviloh, your question is based on an assumption that “choslos” can loose its name “choslos” even while you are still using the bottle as a carrier. Perhaps the halocho of “choslos” does not get lost while the bottle is still holding the original contents – even if one adds some kos shel brocho or kiddush wine into the bottle in order to elevate the kedusha of the wine.

Also, bemechilas kvodchem (“let’s hear it, guys!”) there is a sense of some “gaivo” which is keilu oived avodo zoro, its not kedai as the wine one pours into the bottle won’t make it kodush but yein nesech.

Yakov l- if you pour FIRST, before drinking, after the bracha, then its not pagum. if you make a bracha and then drink and then pour into cup b its pagum. if you drink from the same cup after the same bracha, its ok.

and you mixed up what i wrote- the MB is mifurash.

If you pour into another cup- cup b- the wine in b isnt pagum and doesnt need adding. once a cup is drunk from, it becomes pagum. clear enough?

It is a given that if you wish to reuse the grape juice bottle for other purposes, that you are now using it as an official Keili, and you are required to toivel it.

R’ Moshe is meikil. IG”M 2: 40, and 2: 137.

Daas. Thank you. Can you refer me to the particualr Siman? We’re trying to put together a comprehensive picture on this topic and would appreciate any and all details. Much obliged.

Toi. When you have a chance I would appreciate if you can point out where I can find the rulings you mention. Thanks again.

YakovL. What should I tell you, I’m at a loss… you were potentially oiver on an array of aveirus with your presumptious assertion against me, and yet you preach to me about the merits of Mechila. Astounding.

Parable.

Yankle hurts Moshe – for no reason at all.

Moshe gets upset and says he’s not moichel Yankle.

Yankle says, oh but you really should be moichel me (even though I’m not even acknowledging that I did something wrong). You ask Hashem 3x day for Mechilla. Also, if you’re moichel me, Hashem will be lenient with you.

How heartwarming.