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they’re always wrong?
They’re the same as a guy wearing jean pants.
Jean skirts are the perfect example of how tznius is the “commerce clause” of Judaism. (By which I mean that when you want to make something assur and have no basis, you just claim tznius.)
I have no idea if there is something wrong with wearing a jeans skirt, but I know it has nothing to do with tznius.
canine: Can you articulate what is wrong with men wearing jeans?
Nowadays denim does not need to be casuall. It can be very dressy and aidel. I wear skirts that solid and dark- (they look like navy) and I absolutely think they are 100% ok.
However faded/pocketed.. skirts that is a jewish girl’s version of jeans (not the dressy kind) does not give a very yeshivish/tznius/jewish (cant think of the right word..)impression- even when it is the right “fit” halachicly.
it’s not b’tampte. (no, I’m NOT talking about pickles!)
if you’re not already wearing it, don’t start.
popa: Do executives at Goldman Sachs wear jeans? Do Rabbonim wear them?
Canine:
That does not articulate a reason. We don’t do things because executives at Goldman Sachs do them. We also don’t dress the same as rabbonim.
The problem with men and women wearing jeans is that a ben torah/ bas melech has to wear what are considered nice respectable clothes. Jeans were invented for farmers and by no stretch of the imagination would be considered nice. Nobody would dare wear jeans to a business interview unless they were getting a job as a plumber or something. Black pants and white shirts on the other hand that’s the dress that’s universally considered respectable by everyone.
“By which I mean that when you want to make something assur and have no basis, you just claim tznius.”
Moshiach is definitely coming, popa is being serious?!
Completely agree.
My mother never allowed me to wear a jean skirt and I can tell you one thing: I can’t wait to have girls and dress them in denim. It was the type of restriction that was exactly that – restricting. And I’m not even talking about very trashy/cheap jean skirts.
yeshivabochur123:
Ben torah/bas melech?
What is a ben torah? Is everyone a ben torah? So why don’t you just say everyone has to dress in “nice respectable clothes”?
Are all women a bas melech? So do all women have to dress better than men? (who are not all ben torah)
“I have no idea if there is something wrong with wearing a jeans skirt, but I know it has nothing to do with tznius.”
I disagree. I think its a sensitivity in a girl- attitude, aidelkeit, tznius.. its all related. Tznius isnt black and white- theres a much deeper side to it that touches every aspect of a girls life.
s2021:
I don’t think it is. Tznius is a very specific middah. You can’t just make anything have to do with tznius. It is not all middos blended into one.
It is not the commerce clause.
Elbows, Knees, Collar Bone, Toes & Heels. Thats halacha.
More than that is sensitivities so call it as such.
popa: Please explain to us WHY Rabbonim and Goldman Sachs execs do not wear jeans.
Jeans were invented for farmers and by no stretch of the imagination would be considered nice.
Jean skirts were not invented by farmers. Lets get with the program, its year 2011. We have more options. And also The “color” denim isnt actuall denim mterial..
I dont know what the commerce clause is… But anyway when girls talk and talk about tznius, and evaluate clothing… it includes all kinds of middos associated with tznius. not exactly strictly the definition of tznius.. I think u hafta b a girl to chap..
canine:
Firstly, we should forget about rabbonim, since we can and should accept that rabbonim dress differently than non-rabbonim, and that that is proper.
Executives in Goldman Sachs wear suits while they are working, because nobody would do business with them if they wore black pants and white shirt like yeshiva guys.
I googled “why do bankers wear suits”, and the answer I got is that people like to think of bankers as risk averse, so they need to appear very conservative.
sacrilege- heels-really?
I think girls are sold a “bill of goods” about tznius.
I think it is a bad idea, because by making everything in the world part of tznius, we water down actual tznius. Perhaps that is why we have threads every day complaining about actual tznius issues.
Canine, do you think Goldman Sachs execs wear suits when they golf with their buddies from the Fed? There is a time and a place for every attire.
The commerce clause is the part of the Constitution which allows the federal government to regulate “commerce among the several states”.
It has been read by the Court to mean basically anything, and all sorts of odd laws are passed under the commerce clause. Like the health care bill, and drug laws.
in some frum communities denim/jeans are considered a “counter-culture” look, or a symbol of modernity. that is not the same as a tzniyus issue. attire that covers what needs to be covered & isn’t loud or too tight etc. should not be lumped into the category of “un-tzniyusdik”.
a knitted yarmulke is the norm is many communities. in others it can get you thrown out of yeshiva. does that mean there is something inherently wrong with the knitted yarmulke? I can’t imagine that anyone would say that.
you want to make rules against denim/jeans, go ahead. but be honest about the reason behind the rule and don’t proclaim that it’s part of hilchos tznius. it isn’t.
brother: do you think jeans have a “trashy look”?
popa: And why do IBM executives wear suits and not jeans?
Please still explain why Rabbonim don’t wear them.
There is nothing trashy about jeans skirts that fit well and are long enough. The material is more durable than most other clothing, and that reason alone is a good one to wear clothing made of jeans material. The preoccupation that some people have with jeans and tznius boggles the mind. It wears very well, it covers the body well, and does NOT fly up on a windy day. It could not BE more tzniusdig. And given the high prices charged for some jeans these days, I doubt anyone would call it “farmer’s clothing.”
Rabbonim dress in a different way than everyone else to distinguish themselves. They dress distinguished.
But, we certainly agree that we should not all be dressing like rabbonnim.
IBM executives might wear suits, I don’t know. If they do, it is probably only when they are meeting people. If they do, it is because people expect executives to look conservative also, and so expect to see them in suits.
But enough of me explaining things. If you think you understand why some men don’t wear jeans, you should explain it.
Canine, IBM executives also don’t wear suits when they are golfing with their buddies. Neither does Donald Trump. You will need to come up with something better than repeating why do corporate executives wear suits and not jeans.
Iv been shown tznius is a “bill of goods” and it helped me understand how I can cover my elbows and still not be tznius. If not for the other middos that r associated with it, I would never get it. (which is why it is complicated and girls struggle to understand) But I do not think everything in the world was associated with it- atleast not in my schooling.. BUT think I hear what ur saying about it being “watered down”…
the truth is it depends how u wear it, if its with a hoody, thats okay for a sunday run-over-to-the-gym, but with a long black cardigan it works for casual fridays!!
btw sac, i heard ankle, not toes and heels.?!?!
If Popa is looking for an analogy to the Constitution he should better look at the last sentence of Article I, Section 8 which is otherwise known as the Elastic Clause or the Necessary and Proper Clause.
Firstly, the commerce clause’s extension has been under the necessary and proper clause. Secondly, commerce clause has been broadened much more than anything else under necessary and proper.
“i heard it’s because it’s copying from the Goyim but it doesn’t make sense to me, everything we wear is sort of “copying from the Goyim” no?”
A great assessment. In the 10whatevers gentile royalty wore streimels and bekeshes and somehow that became chassidisheh malbush for all time. Yes, the homberg hats too. Standard yeshivish dress reflects 30’s through 60’s business dress. What makes all this “jewish” or tzniut? I have no idea. The point of this is that the definition of “respectable dress” will change over time. It runs the gamut of Kilts in Ireland to Jalabiya in the middle east. Haberdashery runs from the knit kippah to the Fez from….can anyone guess where? As long as dress is respectable and within the confines of halachah, it should be left alone.
The real problem with jean skirts is that it makes you look like a ZIONIST.
On the other topic IBM loosened up its dress code in 1994. Since then the company has done quite well. I am an engineer and if another one looks like a BANKER he loses credibility with me.
On the other topic IBM loosened up its dress code in 1994.
Well, I don’t think we do thinks because IBM does. I still think yeshiva guys should not be wearing jeans.
denim pants were first manufactured in America by a Jewish immigrant from Bavaria named Levi Strauss. Doesn’t this make them Jewish clothing?
btw sac, i heard ankle, not toes and heels.?!?!
IIRC, it goes according to minhag hamakom above the ankle.
popa: And why do IBM executives wear suits and not jeans?
Please still explain why Rabbonim don’t wear them.
How many Rabbanim (or Rebbetzins) wear hoodies?
Please still explain why Rabbonim don’t wear them.
How many Rabbanim (or Rebbetzins) wear hoodies?
Good point. We should mention that rabbonim don’t wear skirts at all.
My goal in life is to be a Rebbetzin who wears em. Dont laugh Im serious.
Well, here is what I do think about this.
Men who are in yeshiva do not wear jeans, because learning torah is a very respectable occupation, and people who are doing it should dress in very respectable way.
Women don’t wear them because they like to think that they are the same as yeshiva guys- basically, it’s women lib.
We should mention that rabbonim don’t wear skirts at all.
How bout the ones in Scotland?
(Am I thinking of the wrong place??)
“Jeans were created for farmers”. Are jewish farmers allowed to wear jeans?
Do Rabbonim wear pajamas to bed (do they go to bed)?
Do yeshiva bachurim go swimming in their hats and jackets?
Do executives wear suits when vacationing with their families in Disneyland?
Do executives all over the world wear suits? When I traveled to Puerto Rico on business I may have been the only peron on the island wearing a suit jacket and tie (with the possible exception of Rav Zarchi, the chabad shliach and local Rav).
I don’t think the “does a ploni wear such attire” argument get you very far because the answer to that question varies based on the time and place.
“they’re always wrong?”
Of course not! My wife wears them often.
‘i heard it’s because it’s copying from the Goyim but it doesn’t make sense to me, everything we wear is sort of “copying from the Goyim” no?’
If we were really prohibited from copying fashion from the goyim, we would not be wearing suits, ties, trousers, or fedora hats.
“Jeans were invented for farmers and by no stretch of the imagination would be considered nice”
Not true. In Europe, jeans are very fashionable — and cost much more than in the US. I’ve been to Rome where the Levi’s boutique was in the same block as the Armani and Gucci boutiques.
(BTW, they weren’t invented for farmers at all — the first use of denim was in Italian naval uniforms. In America they became popular in California mining communities.)
“bas melech?”
Well the closest thing to a bas melech in the US are President Obama’s daughters. A quick google search will show that they wear denim jeans — not denim skirts, but denim trousers. Thus denim jeans are mutar for Jewish women. 😉
(President Bush’s daughters were more likely to be photographed in miniskirts.)
“denim pants were first manufactured in America by a Jewish immigrant from Bavaria named Levi Strauss. Doesn’t this make them Jewish clothing?”
Yes, much more so than fedora hats!
“My goal in life is to be a Rebbetzin who wears em.”
I know a rebbitzin who wears jeans. It really isn’t an issue if they aren’t form-fitting and they show far less than many of the skirts that are common in the frum world.
also why is it considered acceptable to wear a denim skirt in America, when here, in Israel ur practically considered “not frum” if u wear one. ( and u get kicked out of school)
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