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A lot of what we talk about in the CR is comparing different groups, like yeshivish, modern orthodox, etc.
I would like to know what you consider as criteria to categorize a person in one group or another.
yeshivish- goes to a yeshiva.
Modern Orthodox- ascribes to modern movements in orthodoxy, like chassidus or the mussar movement.
I would say it’s been about a month since we last treated this subject to exhaustion. So it’s time about time to do it again.
I don’t consider such crieria, period! A jew is a jew. Some tzadikim are very cllose to Hashem…
MDG; Yeshivish is generally defined as wearing your hat (Bent up/Bent down.) at all times, including when it’s 100o weather and you’re driving the minivan in your shirtsleeves. Also, you speak “Yeshivish”. MO (Modern Orthodox) is too wide a range to define. And those definitions (& comparisons) that are defined, might offend some people.
This is a waste of time.
We are Jews to those who like us & we are Jews to those who hate us. They don’t differentiate between us; why should we.
MO generally means ascribing to the concept of Torah U’Mada.
It is very important on these type of threads to get your insanity in first.
Modern Yeshivish:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-does-modern-yeshivish-mean
Tuna Bagel:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-is-a-tuna-bagel
Greasy:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-does-greasy-mean
Heimishe:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/heimish-what-does-it-mean-to-you
Modern Orthodox:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/modern-orthodox-judaism
I’m sure I can find more.
yeshivish- goes to a yeshiva.
Modern Orthodox- ascribes to modern movements in orthodoxy, like chassidus or the mussar movement.
agree and approve.
MDG if you switch the letters around your screenname stands for MILLER GENIUNE DRAFT
The more important question is what is Heimish. Only once that is resolved can the other issues like Brim up vs. Brim down be properly understood.
I hate labels.
I hate (sic) red label.
… some might even say a yid is a yid… period.
MDG
“how labels are (mis)applied and (mis)used.”
I’d add that they’re often deceptive and unfair.
there is no formal definition for yeshivish since there is yeshivish movement or group. it is a term imposed by others and sometimes assumed. but mo considers itself a movement, so whoever considers themselves part of that movement would fall in that term.
I think we need a better regulated labeling system.
It is like if apples from Washington had a different grading system than apples from North Carolina.
We should have a commission which decides on uniform labels, including a label for people who refuse to use our labels.
since there is yeshivish movement or group is or isnt??
fall in that term howdya do that?
POPA and what is a movement younger than 200 years ??
not modern or not Orthodox? I think you (un?)intentionally said something profound.
… some might even say a yid is a yid… period.
Reb Ahron said “a goy is a goy…is a goy” (‘…’mine)
Lately, I’ve been describing myself as “flexidish”.
Means everything and nothing, but it has a catchy ring to it!
I’m Jewish.
How bout you?
POPA and what is a movement younger than 200 years ??
the term Orthodox Judaism is not that old
I don’t like labels. But yeshivish means a fellow wears a black hat on Shabbatot and Yamim Tovim (and I believe some even wear them on weekdays).
MO incorporates the subtleties of modernism into the religion.
Reb yentel:
Are you asking me a question?
I am confused.
You want to know how I would classify movements in orthodoxy that are less than 200 years old? Like certain more recent chassidus’s?
I would call them Modern Orthodox. I never restricted my definition. If you want to call them Ultra-Modern-Orthodox, you can. But I don’t think anyone else calls them that.
i like labels
michael kors, tahari , prada etc
Anyone to the left of you = goy/M.O.
Anyone to the right of you = Taliban Judaisim
You = Exactly what Hashem wants
sorry, i meant to write there is NO such thing as a yeshivish movement. it is a description imposed on others or assumed. MO on the other hand IS a self defined movement.
To quote my rebbi, “Anyone to the right of me is a chnyock. Anyone to the left of me is a sheigetz.”
From now on the only such label I’m willing to use for myself (bli neder) is “levi.”
PBA seems ???? ????? was not in your curriculum.
??? ??? ????? ?????
Surpise PBA confused
My point was the same as MDG’s
If you want to call them Ultra-Modern-Orthodox, you can. But I don’t think anyone else calls them that.
thanks for the permission. And who else today other than PBA calls Chasidim Modern as logical as it may sound.
One more from my rebbi:
An early modern rabbi is one who lived between the renaissance and the beginning of the industrial revolution.
A modern rabbi is anyone who died between the beginning of the industrial revolution and the 1970s.
Anyone after that is a postmodern rabbi.
“Modern Orthodox- ascribes to modern movements in orthodoxy, like chassidus or the mussar movement. “
I love it!
Rav Gifter ZT’L reportedly said “I’m not an Orthodox Jew, I’m a Torah Jew.”
“Member … some might even say a yid is a yid… period.”
And then there are the yechidei segula, us pushiter yidden 🙂
28 years ago, around the table one day by lunch several guys in the yeshiva were discussing the terms applied to groups of yidden. Back then, if you wore brown pants and a blue shirt (at the same time) you were “greasy”, if you wore a belt (gevald!) You wore a bit to the left. If you were color coordinated, gevald, you were already halfway towards kefira. Times sure have changed. Super greasy (the term yeshivish wasn’t in the vocabulary) guys didn’t take off their hat and jackets in the bathroom or, while playing basketball.
That was the psak of those bachurim in yeshiva of staten island, all those years ago. 🙂
so they named us Orthodox
Which, of course, is very funny, because we are anything but Orthodox.
The Wolf
CharlieHall; You agree with, and love the definiton of “Modern Orthodox” as either Chassidus or the Mussar movement. Let’s be honest. No one defines either of the above mentioned movements today as MO. Mussar is –today– defined as “Yeshivish. (Or, related to it.) And Chassidus. Well. We all know what a splendid reputation it has. Besides. You classify yourself as MO. Do you feel you’re related –spiritually– to either of them?! I davened once in a MO Shul. (No name or location) on a Yom Tov. Never mind. It might be L”H (Lamed Hay).
CharlieHall; You agree with, and love the definiton of “Modern Orthodox” as either Chassidus or the Mussar movement.
I did not take Charlie’s “I love it” as agreeing to MO being used commonly that way, but rather, as I did, appreciate the humor in using the literal sense of modern in a way opposite it’s use in the vernacular.
I do not know about definitions but here is choice of synonyms
121 Moby Thesaurus words for “orthodox”:
*ristian, Orthodox Jew, accepted, accordant, accustomed, acknowledged, admitted, anal, approved, authentic, authoritative, authorized, being done, bourgeois, button-down, canonical, canonist, comme il faut, common, compulsive, concordant, conformable, conformist, conservative, conventional, correct, corresponding, customary, de rigueur, decent, decorous, die-hard, doctrinal, dour, established, evangelical, faithful, firm, fogyish, formal, formalistic, fundamentalist, hard, harmonious, hidebound, impliable, in accord, in keeping, in line, in step, inexorable, inflexible, iron, ironbound, ironclad, ironhanded, kosher, literal, meet, muscle-bound, obdurate, obstinate, of the faith, official, old-line, ordinary, orthodox *ristian, orthodoxical, orthodoxist, pedantic, plastic, popular, precisianistic, prevailing, prevalent, procrustean, proper, purist, puristic, puritan, puritanic, reactionary, received, recognized, regular, relentless, right, rigid, rigorist, rigoristic, rigorous, rockbound, sanctioned, scriptural, seemly, sound, square, standard, stiff, straight, straightlaced, straitlaced, stubborn, stuffy, textual, textualist, textuary, the orthodox, tory, traditional, traditionalist, traditionalistic, true, true believer, true-blue, unbending, uncompromising, unrelenting, unyielding, uptight
Source: Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0
And here is the “authoritative” definition by Wikipedia
Definitions of modern orthodox judaism on the Web:
I davened once in a MO Shul. (No name or location) on a Yom Tov. Never mind. It might be L”H (Lamed Hay).
So, instead of slandering a particular shul, you decided to take a cheap pot-shot at the whole movement.
The Wolf
“Do you feel you’re related –spiritually– to either of them?! “
Yes.
Charliehall; Thank you for the clarification.
Wolfishmusings; I had no intention of slandering a (Any) particular Shul or a movement, CH”V. I love every Jew. (I only hope, they reciprocate.) Since I see some people’s imagination is running wild, I’ll fill you in on the story. Nothing sinister or of an offending nature transpired. I was made to feel welcome by everyone. But, it was between Mincha and Maariv of the First and Second day Yom Tov. The Shul has scheduled for some boys and Bar Mitzvah bochurim to speak. Since my nephew was one of the speakers, I was invited to attend. But when I heard 3 consecutive speakers relate stories of, and about Chassidim (In the singular.) I said to the person seated next to me (Jokingly, of course.) “A Chussid must be some kind of animal”.
Reb Yontl the Male Yenta; or, Reb Yontl Ben Yenta (to Poppa Bar Abba). If I’m not mistaken, the Mussar Movement, founded by R’ Yisroel Salanter is less than 200 Years old. (Approximately 160 Years.). The “Mussar” movement’s principles are built on Middos.(Bein Odom l’Chaveiro.) And self-discipline and deprivation. Chassidus (Which preceded the Mussar movement by about 60-70 Years), in its Generic form worked towards the same goals but with a different approach. Countering the elitist stance of the “Lomdish/Misnagdish” movement, which alienated the uneducated masses (Hamon Am.) who, in their simple ways felt that their form of Avodas Hashem was not appreciated, Chassidus put emphasis on Emuna and Love for Hashem and less importance on studying and knowledge of Shulchan Aruch. It was a revolutionary approach. But under the circumstances, it was the right thing to do. It lifted them up from despair and motivated them to continue with their Emuna.
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