kiruv

the reason probably is, that people want to go the way that they want to go it’s like the joke with the first atheist, that he went through the holocaust and when he got out he said “G-d you took away my family, you know what I’m not going to believe in you” (I think R Orlofsky says this) whereas the people that aren’t frum are ignorant, so they need someone to teach them and here is what kiruv is for

There our some who are involved with at risk or OTD like Project Yes, but ofcourse we need to do more.

Many are helping. It’s just that those helping cannot point to someone who was originally frum and state that that individual is currently frum because of them while people who help those who were not originally frum can make this statement.

I think there’s equal amount of work being done, both in Kiruv Rechokim and Kiruv Krovim.

Both are very important and we need more people to be involved in the work!

if you’re in lakewood as name suggests, there is someone starting exactly that – though i think they’re starting with 8th graders and planning on building up year by year.

observateen: wow! you’re lucky to have a mother who can do that. many are unequipped to do so.

lkwdgirl: when i was in highschool, i read tons of books on subject. if you’re into reading, i’m sure many of us in cr can give you list.

i’m curious, what do you and others can answer as well feel would help you in your emuna? what are your questions and needs? how do you think schools or others can better equip you for life?

Daas Yochid made an amazing point, and it shouldn’t be ignored. There OTD children are the unsuccessful Kiruv Krovim products, while there are many more unsuccessful Kiruv Rechokim.

Daas Yochid

There’s no question about it – mechanchim and parents selflessly dedicate their lives to the chinuch of children. But what about the percentage of kids who aren’t making it in this chinuch system? We’re all aware that this % is growing every year.

Doesn’t anyone wonder why?

(I’m not saying I have all the answers, but this is no slap in the face for anyone! It’s a tough question that I believe most mechanchim would rather not deal with. It’s much more convenient to sit back and beam at the thousands of kids who [seem to be] portraying the proper image of what a yid is “supposed to look like”, and pat yourself on the back, job well done.)

I’m not saying we’re failing miserably. The majority is still frum (on the outside, at least). But what about the rest?

There is a much larger percentage of Rechokim that don’t make it.

While it is important that those who have questions have whom to ask, without being afraid, it is not important to have questions. Most children are better off without a questioning environment. I would even venture to say that today’s liberal thinking, question everything society is the main cause for the outwardly Frum and inwardly dried to the core.

Once someone is dead set on questioning there are no answers. As Sefarim quote, one fool can ask more questions than a hundred wise men can answer.

gavra at work

I agree. I don’t think I said (or insinuated) that girls should be taught on a level anywhere near to that which the boys learn.

I agree with what you said. It’s 100% true, and it’s unfortunate that many girls know more Yalkut’s and Ramban’s than the most basic principals of hashkafa. It’s unfortunate that girls know a thousand meforshim on tehillem, but lack the personal connection that a BT has when davening.

And of course schools should focus on subjects that specifically pertain to girls like Basar V’cholov.

(are you sure you were responding to my post…?)

THAT whole attitude of not wanting dialogue is exactly what I’m talking about.

Why so defensive?

The simple answer is because it’s easier.

Someone with no background who becomes interested in Torah approaches it from a completely different angle than someone who grew up frum and begins to question.

The former is a much easier person to satisfy. If you’re discussing hashkafa the exchange boils down to this: s/he asks “what do Jews believe.” Hopefully you have what to answer.

With someone who grew up frum, it’s different. The questions are more complicated. Not all of them have easy answers and not all of them have answers at all. Because a frum kid with questions — say a mesivta bochur named Itche — does not ask “what do Jews believe?” He starts with “why has no one told me that Jews believe X if all the rishonim consider it so important?” and it only goes downhill from there. Quite often the person asked barely knows what “X” is. Then — if he doesn’t get disgusted and wander off looking for someone competent elsewhere (which many do) — he moves on to learning yesodos ha-emuna b’iyun, and when you learn b’iyun you have kushyos and stiros. To do “kiruv krovim” you have to be able to learn hashkafa b’iyun and know Yesodei Torah not as well as you know To’en v’nit’an — but as well as your Rosh Yeshiva knows to’en v’nit’an. Having been on the student side of that kind of learning, I know that I have met exactly two people in my life who are qualified to do that and only one of them is actually “in kiruv.”

DY

I don’t necessarily blame todays Chinuch as a whole because there are some great trailblazing Mechanchim out there. What some Mechanchim out there don’t realize (or refuse to realize) is that we are living in the year 2011, a confusing, distracting, exciting and frightening time. What was taught (and the way it was taught) in the ‘alte heim’ isn’t going to cut it.

What we DO know is, is that Yiddishkeit is beautiful and it speaks for itself. The way we open up the eyes of children to that has to be with different means than previously used. To stand on ceremony and say that this school/Yeshiva isn’t going to do ‘X’ because it was never done before or insisting that girls uphold a ridiculous level of Tznius in school, when they are going home and they dont even do basics….. to me is the wrong way of approaching things.

Sac: I think a school/yeshiva must stick to the rules, even if some kids don’t keep the basics at home. They should take care of the basics too of course, but there’s a set of rules a school must keep. There are also lots of kids who are temimusdig, and we don’t want to “enlighten” them. Let them serve Hashem in their simple way. Nevertheless, you shouldn’t neglect the needs of a smart deep kid.

observanteen: I hope you don’t take this the wrong way but I feel very passionate about this subject.

You say you don’t want to “enlighten” the kid. Why not? I challenge you to come up with an answer to that question that doesn’t lead directly to either kfira or worse. As I will demonstrate, those seem to be the only alternatives. We have a faith. We worship a God. In fact we worship the God besides Whom there is no other. That is the aleph-beis of basic Judaism. In a sense this aleph-beis is easier than the regular one because it has only thirteen “letters.” Yet it is still not part of our curriculum. How many bochurim in yeshiva can list all 13 ikarim without peeking? How many of them have sung “yigdal” every day of school through 5th grade?

I agree that it isn’t wise to answer questions that were never asked, especially when we’re talking about those questions that don’t have any answers. But neither of us are talking about teaching elementary school students about theodicy and the Kuzari principle. We are talking about teaching the things that are the foundations of what it means to be a Jew and, unlike our reconstructionist brethren, we both know that it doesn’t mean gefilte fish on Friday night. It means that we believe in one God who gave us one Torah. There are a couple details where there might be room to disagree on how much we dwell on the nature of yichud, the issurim of shituf etc, but that much we all hold as the basis of our faith, yet none of this is ever taught in a high school classroom, boys or girls! To quote my rebbi (one of the men I mentioned in my earlier post) “Yankele sings ‘Hashem is here Hashem is there’ when he is 5 years old and he goes the rest of his life with a five-year-old’s understanding of the concept.”

You want to change that situation for the better and I admire you for it tremendously, but please take a look at what you’re saying when you say you want to let a kid plod along his tmimusdig way. You imply one of two things. Either a) teaching him/her yesodei hadas will ruin his/her tmimus or b) it won’t but you have another reason for not wanting to tell him/her.

a) is kfira pure and simple. “a” says that the very foundations of our faith, the most significant of the ikarim cannot withstand any scrutiny at all. In fact, you are saying something even worse. You are saying that they are less than nothing, that someone who accepted Torah beforehand will leave it now that he knows Who he’s doing it for!

b) is worse. B is a chazon ish shiur of avoda zara mit alle “hiddurim”. You know that he will continue to keep Torah umitzvos after he knows about God but you refuse to tell him anyway. Why? Because you don’t want him to know about God. Why don’t you want him to know about God? Because you are deliberately keeping this person from acknowledging his or her Creator for your own selfish purposes. Comparisons can be drawn to either migdal bavel or the calves of Yeravam ben Nevat for different reasons, but I don’t want to get too carried away.

I apologize for the rant and assure you that I speak only from a place of ahavas yisroel. Any harsh words I said come from pain and not personal animosity; I hope you understand.

But I ask you one last time: Why not teach them?

The Rambam wrote the sefer Morah Nevochim, to answer the questions one can have regarding emuna. Most ppl aren’t allowed to read it. Why?! That’s “kfira pure and simple”, isn’t it? It’s not meant for everyone. Besides, was there anything wrong with the kids who believed in the alteh heim with temimus?

BTW, I totally lost you on your second reason why I wouldn’t enlighten the temimusdike kids. Why on earth would you think that?

I like ItcheSrulik’s response. I read it as “its much easier to teach Gemorah than it is to teach Yisodos”.

It sounds like you’re taking a potch at the chinuch method’s utilized by our Beis Yaakov’s and Yeshivos, that presumably follow the standards of our Gedolim. Am I misunderstanding your point or reading it wrong? Thanks

I think students should be taught how they most want to be taught.

If a boy isn’t interested in learning gemara, but loves learning Tanach, he should be able to focus on that.

If a girl is really interested in learning gemara, she should be able to focus on that. (IME most girls don’t want to, but those that do really excel because they love learning it).

When you try to pigeon-hole kids into a specific learning path, you turn them off from learning altogether.

GM: This is a long standing Machlokes between the Gedolim. Rav Yitzchok Adlerstein posted about it on Cross Currents a while back. It is a matter of being willing to sacrifice a portion of the Klal to form a Gem.

The Moshel being Diamonds. The shiita being that is is worth smashing every rock because a few may have diamonds, vs. the other side which holds the rock in of itself is beautiful, so we should value each one for what it can do.

And no one in the Yeshiva world holds of what we are teaching girls, Navi with all meforshim. I will stand corrected if you can tell me otherwise.

I think you read it wrong.

observanteen: you misunderstand me. I was not talking about the Moreh, which is well beyond even most people who do try to learn it. I was talking about the simplest of the simple yesodos which RaMBaM put in the Yad — the book aimed at the masses — for a reason. That reason was because it was meant for the masses. They are part of what you call the “dry facts.” Emuna is not supplementary to Torah, it is the ikkar.

That’s an important thing to fix. I’m curious as to what your approach would be. Would you open up a Sefer Hamada and start reading like the halacha sefer it is, or would you treat emuna differently kind of like mussar is already? Both sides have their pros and cons though personally I favor the former.

MONEY!!!!!!!!My husband is amazing at kiruv krovim and has worked here in EY for a while in it. Now he is looking for a job in the states and NO ONE IS HIRING!!!!!!!! There is no $$$$$$. So if you know of somewhere that will take someone wanting to work in kiruv krovim…please, let me know!!!!!!!!!!

I always felt that the modern yeshiva curriculum was inadequate at meeting the spiritual and religious needs of most people. Historically in Europe, Iyun was limited to a very small group, and most men would learn Ein Yaakov, Mishnayos, halachos, etc. People need to have a foundation in Machshava, Yesodei HaEmunah, and Chochmas Yisroel. The spiritual element and the more intellectual element of Iyun are both necessary, and are complimentary. We need a diversified seder halimud. Rav Kook understood this quite well.