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I believe poster “popcorn” made a very valid point on another thread. She wrote:
“You are not just saying yes to a date. You might be saying yes to a marriage. Once the couple starts dating and they like each other, what then? You start doing more research that you haven’t done yet because you needed to answer in 2-4 days. By then it’s too late. It’s best to do all your proper research before the couple starts to date. And of course always do Dor Yesharim BEFORE any dating.”
I know its popular in certain circles to degrade Chareidim for doing so much research before a young couple even goes out the first time. But as “popcorn” notes, this is vital to happen before the trolley starts rolling. Otherwise it may have gone to far, the young couple may be smitten with each other, and newly discovered negative information that SHOULD have made the shidduch unsuitable (for whatever reason), may no longer stop what shouldn’t have happened in the first place.
I disagree. If something is a reason to not marry someone, that is because you think it would be a problem even in the context of having a relationship. So if you found out later, you would break the relationship.
The only thing to fear is the hurt that will come from breaking the relationship. I am not very concerned about that if you will find our after a couple of dates.
And what about the guys in their mid twenties who go out with about a hundred people in 2-3 years? It would be nice if all guys would find Miss Right with less attempts, but thats what I see happening. Either the guys have the combination of Mazel and/or personality type to marry a girl within the first ten girls they date, or the numbers increase to a hundred or more, very, very quickly.
How much checking are they going to do at date #56?
Of course its proper to do as much resarch before dating, But I don’t think it will lead to an unwanted marrige if found out later. If its a problem and it bothers you then you will break it up (assuming you don’t want to marry a person you don’t want). And if its not a problem, then whats the problem?
The point in dating until you are sure is to get to know the other person. If you find things out about the other person whether face to face or through information that doesn’t sit right with you, or that you can’t live with, you call it off. You don’t necessarily need to nor do you always find everything out in the week you research the shidduch. Some times it goes well the first few dates and as it gets more serious and you talk about more serious issues you find out that you are not that compatible or your family styles or values don’t mesh.
Shlishi – If its an issue then its a issue, and it will be broken. Otherwise whats the problem, As a matter of fact it may be better like this, people just wont turn down people for any stupid reason!
Most of the time you won’t find out everything you need to know before you start dating. Here’s a secret “people lie when they give information”.
Most of the time you won’t find out everything you need to know before you start dating. Here’s a secret “people lie when they give information”.
Really? I never woulda thunk it. 😉
Seriously, it’s circular; people are comfortable giving false and incomplete information because they figure, “let them go out and they’ll see for themselves anyhow”. The more emphasis placed on information rather than dating, the more truthful the information would be. I say this on a societal scale (for example, I think it works that way by chassidim). On an individual basis, you have to deal with reality.
i think some of you are under-estimating the pain, hurt, waste of time, and expense of just going out and then finding out that the person is not “shayach” at all. the importance of doing “research” is not just to find out that they don’t have some hidden malady (though i’m sure that many emotionally scarred spouses wished that they had done more research), but to help you find the right person without going out with tons of others, with all the hope, dressing up, etc. and then disappointment. i’m not so afraid of the disappointment, but the despair that comes with going out with so many people and not finding the right person is very harmful. it’s hard to date correctly and with optimism if gone out with so many before and nothing happened. (may then even miss signs that person is right because one is too depressed to date properly). much wiser and effective is to invest time to thinking of who truly are and what truly need and seriously look for that when doing research. if a person wants to be an engineer, why should he go on tons of interviews for jobs which are looking for a doctor, a teacher, a salesperson – just in case and will see what happens afterwards?
It also depends on what the information you check out is, and how far into the process you do it. I always understood the point of Chareidim checking out before was not to avoid breaking it up later but rather to avoid wasting time, emotional energy, etc. dating if is not going to work out. (In other words, if this information would break of the shidduch after a few dates, why would you not want to know it before hand and avoiding the unnecessary dating altogether?)
BTW Dor Yeshorim themselves requests VERY STRONGLY that you check out before the first date so as to avoid any uncomfortable situations later. It is literally a 5 minute phone call, so yes, even if you are on girl #376, there is no reason not to make this one call!
I think the truthfulness of the information you get hinges on how much connections you have. If you’re not that well connected, you have only the references given as a source of information, or the principals, neighbors, or friends, etc of the single. Generally speaking, unless these people know you, they arent going to tell you anything negative. OTOH of you get someone you know well, who either knows the person they’re asking the questions of well, or has “muscle” in the community, to inquire, more chance you’ll get the inside scoop.
If 2 people, one a stranger, one an acquaintance, ask the same person, the same question, they often get a modified answer.
As far as Dor Yesharim, no one Litvish I’ve dealt with checks before a fourth date, and it seems strange for one side to ask for the other’s numbers before then, for that reason. For some reason, the more modern the crowd, the later they check. Possibly because each additional date, isnt of such major importance bec they go out with many more people.
even miss signs that person is right because one is too depressed to date properly
So sad.
What can be done to prevent this and to come out of this, once there
to: of course
you commented that by the Litvish they don’t call Dor Yesharim until about the 4th date…..earlier in another thread I wrote that I personally know a Rov who had a child with Tay Sachs
(he was married a year or two before Dor Yesharim testing became available)and the family suffered for 5 years watching this child have a slow death. It became his mission to advocate Dor Yesharim testing before any dating. A young couple who dated and were smitten with each other chose to do Dor Yesharim testing at the END of their dating… the test showed that they were both carriers…they were facing a painful decision and were refered to this Rov for counseling. He begged them to reconsider and to call off the Shidduch bec. they were both carriers for Tay Sachs. They were so crazy about each other that they chose not to break off the Shidduch. 14 months after marriage a baby was born to them with Tay Sachs. So…better to do Dor Yesharim BEFORE any dating…and certainly it’s more uncomfortable to ask for the DY number on a 4th or 5th date. What if either side boy/girl is not up to anything serious yet and gets asked for their DY# and then they say “oh…I didn’t know he/she is already serious about this…they are moving too fast for me” and creates
uncomfortable situations. The Dor Yeshorim phone call takes 3 minutes. You enter the info on automated machine and get an answer within the day or next morning.
The same applies to doing research for a Shidduch. Do the research properly, even if it takes the full week. Why rush to answer and then send out the couple on dates and then find out something you didnt like and try to break it up….with a chance that they already are strongly connected. (of course I know you will never find out everything about a person and things surface about your spouse once you are married, but hopefully it’s the small things) May all of Klal Yisroel be blessed with wonderful Shidduchim!
When someone I don’t know calls me for information I don’t feel obligated to say everything I know about someone. Why should I? How do I know who they are and what they are hiding? Maybe its a perfect shidduch. It is not my job to spread L”H about anyone.
On the other hand if someone I do know calls me about a shidduch and I know something about the prospect that won’t sit well with them. I tell them it is not for you. If they push me and ask why, I simply say “you called me for information because you trust me. I know you and I know that this is not what you are looking for. It is not important why I say this because it is not important for you to know what I know. It will be a perfect shidduch for someone else and people are entitled to their privacy. For you, it is not a good shidduch.
I know a lot of young people who have B”H recovered from their teenage years. Today they are wonderful bnei Torah, you would never recognize them from 5 or 6 years ago. Does that mean they shouldn’t get married? They need to be judged on who they are today, not who they were back then. But some people understand that and some people just don’t. Is it necessary for me to tell someone about a particular person’s past and spread the information or is it enough if I just say “the shidduch is not for you” knowing that they would never forgive the prospect’s past?
If someone asks me I know this person had a very troubled childhood what are they like today? I can be truthful and honest with them and tell them what I know about that person.
of course — It is much less uncomfortable to check with Dor Yeshorim before going out altogether than after a 4th date. Initially it is clear that this is just part of your checking, as opposed to once you start going out the “other side” can be reading all sorts of things into it (“does this mean she/he thinks it’s serious?” “maybe we’re not holding at the same point”, etc.)
As has been mentioned earlier — it is a VERY EASY thing to do!!! Why risk being put into an uncomfortable situation at the least, and possibly a heartbreaking one? Dor Yeshorim themselves in all their literature practically begs everyone to check BEFORE starting to date.
If you discover you like the person and then discover some deragatory information, it might be that the deragatory information isn’t really all that important to you and you would have missed your basherte had you been too picky!
I disagree with the OP. If you are not mature enough to handle a disappointment or a setback, you shouldnt be seeing anyone for the purposes of shidduchim.
Idk references as others mentioned only know so much abt the person, they dont know what the guys watching or thinking. All they know is from what he says and how he acts. U gotta ask hashem for clarity. I mentioned this before in the cr, I dated a guy who was learning….a learning guy in a goooood yeshiva….maybe even a little greasy…ewww anyways as we dated he started talking less yeshivish and more secular and I noticed the red flags but he was a nice guy so I let it go….until he decided one night to tell me on the phone he doesnt wanna be shomer….i said buh bye rite then and there….but my point being none of his refs wuda known that side to him, even his rebbe and chavrusa who we called….i asked hashem for clarity and bh I got it !!!!
truthbetold: i was dating in my late 20’s and the guys i saw – good, Lakewood guys who must have dated 100’s of girls really were depressed – you could see it. i know because i also was there. luckily (obviously, with b’tziata deshmaya), i got renewed strength, did maximum hishtadlus and maximum tefillah, and Hashem had my zivug find me (who for various reasons had barely dated, so he came in with a lot of energy and interest). the answer is that they also should really think about what they’re looking for and do better research (not necessarily into nitty gritty, but into things that are of importance to them).
apushatayid: of course a person should be mature enough to handle some disappointment, but do you have any idea of what it’s like to be dating (whether you are a boy or a girl) for 10 years, and trying to go out each time with the same optimism that started with when one was 20?!? would you tell someone with fertility problems that if they were old enough to get married, they should be mature enough to handle the disappointment of not becoming pregnant each month? that’s what dating for many years is like for many people.
apy – But why come to the dissapointment? I agree with charliehall as stated in my previous post.
I agree with popcorn 100%. It is very important to check out Dor Yesharim before dating! It’s a short phone call and can reduce so much unnecessary stress…
Charlie, I agree.
Aries, certain info you have to give to prevent people from falling into a wrong marriage. It is a commonly-done avla to hide things, which should have been revealed. This is what the Chofets Chaim paskened.
Shlishi,infatuation is good. It makes people overlook stupid hakpodos. The more infatuation, the less “shidduch crisis”. I am serious.
I disagree with the logic of telling someone the shidduch is not for you, when asked info. i truly resent that answer when someone gives it to me!! You should not be making this decision for anyone!Just answer his questions and give the info, not your opinion, unless of coarse you were asked.
If you think the world is out to get you, and everyone is lying to you and is hiding some big dark secret, unless you are a private investigator you will not uncover all skeletons in everyones closet. Even then, some will stay hidden. There seems to be an obsession with knowing everything there is to know about someone before agreeing to meet them for a shidduch meeting. Every nuance about a persons personality, the personality of the parents, uncles and cousins, this fascination with how other people live, the things they do and how they do it lends an almost vouyeristic quality to todays shidduchim.
RB. I’m not sure what “charliehall post” you refer to, but the last one I read, he doesnt say anything that I adisagree with, nor does he say anything that disagrees with me. Either way, it is my opinion that todays shidduch game, has become an end to itself and not a means. It seems as if the goal is to amass as much info as possible to find that one reason to reject a shidduch. I spoke to a 40 year old guy and 37 year old girl last night (dont know either very well, but have mutual friends of both and I was chosen as the go between to set them up) and both were looking for that one little nugget so that they could say no, I dont want to meet this person.
a mamin, then we will just have to disagree on this point. There is no reason that I have to tell someone about another person’s past so they can repeat it to another and then another. It is enough for me to tell someone I really know that the shidduch is not for them because I know that they will nix the shidduch if they know that. They either trust me or not. If they trust me they know I have their best interest at heart. If they don’t trust me they can ask someone else. It is NOT necessary to speak L”H on other people. My friend from out of town called me about a young man in my neighborhood. He is a great guy today, he wasn’t 5 years ago. I told her it wasn’t for her. She asked me why and I said I can’t tell her but I know that if she knew what I know she would not accept the shidduch. There is nothing wrong with the boy and he would make a great shidduch for someone else but I know what she is looking for and this is not what she is looking for. (she is very particular). B”H her daughter is married and she got exactly what was matim to her family and what was appropriate for her daughter. B”H I did not spread anything about this boy’s past because I care about him, respect him for what he has accomplished and am friends with his family. There is just no need for it. Whoever knows knows and whoever doesn’t has no need to. It is up to him to disclose his past to his future spouse and not me.
Why should I ruin his chances of getting married when he turned his life around and is no longer the same person he was 5 years ago. Can you compare a 23 year old to an 18 year old or 17 year old? Kids change and why should I spread information about his past? That just isn’t right. Again if someone called me and told me then know about his past what is he like today, I would have a real conversation with them, but I still would not disclose what I know about his past just discuss what I know about him today.
aries2756
I don’t either agree with your approach. You’d be surprised how many shidduchim come about that you would never have dreamed of. Not giving a reason makes a person think that there’s a bigger problem than there probably is.
That’s one good part about Chassidish Shidduchim. We find out everything, but EVERYTHING about the boy/girl Before they meet. So much extensive research is done. It doesn’t give boys an opportunity to meet 100 girls BARUCH HASHEM.
I guess our insanity stays intact 🙂
apy – Sorry, the second half of my post was not intended towards you. I was just stating my opinion. But the first part was – that why cause dissapointment.
Again it is find to disagree, I have been involved in shidduchim for many, many years so I know what I am doing. Anyone I know personally who trusts me, trust my judgement. Anyone who I don’t know, I don’t owe them anything. I might say I don’t know them that well, maybe you should ask someone else. Again, I have no idea who is on the other end, and rarely do they introduce themselves so I am not obligated to divulge anything to strangers.
Smartcookie, on TU be’Av, in times of Chazal, boys would meet hundreds of girls. Chazal did not have a problem with that. The Chassidim do.
“I spoke to a 40 year old guy and 37 year old girl last night” –
A 37 year old female is NOT a girl.
“We find out everything, but EVERYTHING about the boy/girl”
Everything, except for what’s on their mind. That, you cannot know until the couple becomes a couple.
What we do have, is extensive damage control, and the ability to cover up like few others can, so when a surprise comes to light, we can deal with it quietly.
Raw data (like whose married to who, and what each one does ((or claims to do)) for a living, where they go for vacations) that we’re better than the IRS.
But the real person? Not until after sheva brachos.
mdd, the goyisha world also does not have a problem with guys meeting hundreds of girls. But the Torah world does.
MDD- that’s very wrong. The boys didn’t go out for supper with each girl and spend hours with her. They chose a girl out of many.
And it’s very ok to drop a girl if there’s a reason for it. Yup, by Chassidim too. But it isn’t a whole game by us.
I’m not taking sides or saying beshows are better than dating, but this is one good part of it.(and prob one of the only advatages to it!)
Bpt- of course, some things aren’t even known before Shana Rishona is over! But in my family, so much research is done, that I pity the boy/girl after a while!
I quoted a Gemora in Ta’anis, for crying out loud!
Bpt: I agree. You cannot possibly know the other person until after the sheva brachos (or is it a year?). Therefore, you’ve gotta do a lot of research. PRECICELY for this reason! When you go out to date, there’s very little you can actually see. And when you see something you dislike with him/her, there probably could have been ppl who would’ve let you know about this when doing your research. (Not all the time, of course. But again, do ppl who date before doing research know their fiance/e better?) I think that the guys who date a hundred girls without researching them first, aren’t exactly fair. It’s disheartening for the girl as it is for the boy. Why go through the pain and anguish? First ask others to see if s/he is actually for you.
Since I don’t know the party who is calling me and they have NOT told me anything about themselves or their family, NO I don’t believe that I am obligated to answer their intrusive questions. I do open up more with people who introduce themselves and tell me about their own child and what they are looking for and then ask me if the person in question is compatible.
If a stranger calls me and point blank asks me such questions, I just say “I don’t know that much about the family maybe you should call someone else”. So no I don’t lie and NO i’m not obligated to answer, Ask your own RAV about what to say and what not to say and who is obligated to say what. You can also get that information from the Chofetz Chaim society.
If you are going to call strangers be prepared to introduce yourself and tell them about yourself. Don’t try to be secretive and expect others to open up to you. What is your heter to accuse me of lying? I hope you never call me as well. As I said, I have been involved in many shidduchim and have been instrumental in giving the proper information to make the shidduch go through. So I don’t need your advice or your opinion on the way I conduct myself. I have told many a caller that I will not answer stupid questions such as tablecloths, toilet training, crystal glasses, maids, etc. I have told callers how much the entire neighborhood respects the family, loves the young person in question, benefit from their contributions and so on. If I know them personally I will give them my personal opinion on whether or not I think it is shayach.
I have made one shidduch on my own for someone who is very important to me. Every couple I set up on dates told me that although the chemistry wasn’t there I was on the right track and if I had anyone else for them, they would try it.
aries, sorry for my tone, but this is a sore point for me because of 2 recent cases I can think of and here’s one:
I have a relative by marriage who was in Shidduchim a couple of years ago. I knew that he had emotional issues, and was on meds for a while. I used to daven when he was in Shidduchim that no one should call me about him. At that time I asked a Shailoh about what I should say if asked, and was told that I have no heter to lie to anyone. I dont have to offer the information on my own, but I cant say no if I have the bad luck to be pinned against the wall with a health question about him. B”H I was only asked about the parents.
Update: He is now divorced with kids, and even though I was never asked about the boy’s health, I feel terrible for the girl. I think about her all the time. She tells people that she and her family were too trusting, and they lost faith in humanity. Such an innocent sweetiepie. Throughout the engagement I was thinking that I hope she finds out, but it cant/wont be through me. I remember being at the Lchaim, and everyone there knew and didnt say anything then and throughout the engagement. Very sad.
Ofcourse, it was the chosson and his family’s obligation to disclose the information before they got engaged. Who gave THEM a heter not to disclose the information. THAT is the real question. The ONUS is on them to be honest and truthful in order to make a good marriage and not bring children into a bad situation. THEY have the achrius for whatever happens to these children and the young woman trapped in a web of lies.
mdd
Member
Smartcookie, it is better than many divorces and unhappy marriages. Is it true that by the Chassidim, there are more divorces? Or they just stay married so that the street should not talk?
POSTED 20 MINUTES AGO #
Make up your mind mdd. Do you hate Chasidim because they have “more divorces” (which is factually inaccurate – they have much less) – or because you prefer to make a baseless allegation they “stay married” so people shouldn’t talk? You are making contradictory claims — both without evidence and factually false.
Ofcourse:
Were you ever contacted by the girl who eventually married him, prior to their engagement? If not, I can’t imagine you did anything wrong, since she/they never contacted you.
Aries – Anyone else also has a chiyuv. Just because the family didn’t doesn’t make you not responsible to tell.
aries, unfortunately there’s lots of lieing parents around. Theyre not unique. Uch in Vey if we’re depending on the parents to fess up about their child. Even now they’re saying the divorce happened because there is something wrong with her! Thats the way it goes in Divorceland! If I wasnt closely involved, Id think that might be the case. From what Ive seen, parents N E V E R offer negative info on their kids, unless its something obvious! Theyre looking for another victim, nebach. I feel bad for them too though. They didnt cause the original problem.
Anyhow, the Posek told me that if Im pushed against the wall, I have to say something. Maybe not give all the details, but not deny it totally.
Tums, I was never contacted by the Kallah’s side, b”H, but just the fact that I and almost everyone at that Lchayim knew and pretended, bothers me terribly.
I agree with Tums and OfCourse. I have a cousin who married a girl who was mentally ill. He divorced her with kids. He’s now re-married B”H. After his divorce, a girl called up his family to ask mechilla, because she didn’t say she was a sicko (she wasn’t at fault. She thought the boy had issues too.) But, where was everybody else??? How could they help build a home that’ll get distroyed? What a crime! Aries, how can you be so confident with your not disclosing vital info? I don’t get it. What does that have to do with the ppl on the other line telling you who they are?? Besides, have you ever asked Daas Torah, or is this based on your own knowledge and assumptions? Sorry, if I’m appearing too harsh, but, this is terrible!
mdd
Member
Smartcookie, it is better than many divorces and unhappy marriages. Is it true that by the Chassidim, there are more divorces? Or they just stay married so that the street should not talk?
Mdd- I don’t know what goes on in every Chassid’s marriage. But I can tell you about myself, most of my extended family members, and all of my friends that we are all B”H REALLY happily married.
Yes, many Chassidim know how to treat their wife too….
But you’ll never believe me because there’s something in your heart that doesn’t like us and it bothers me a lot.
In any case, I don’t see marriages working better after the couple dated 10 times. Sorry 🙁
You cannot generalize.
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