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How do older singles stay moral throughout a lifetime of singlehoodness?
Very poignant question.
Ask the Pope.
Helpful
very big word.
TheChevra
i dont know if we want the answer.
That is an excellent question, and it has to do with who they are and their connection to Hashem. It also has to do with the people around them and whether they treat them as equals or they are condensending. Being single is a difficult nisayon but it doesn’t take away from an individual’s personality, intelligence, humor, ability to love, be a good friend, etc.
Friends, neighbors and family should include singles just as one would include others. It is up to the individual to accept or declne an invitation. Just because a person happens to be single that doesn’t mean that their life stops to exist. When they are still part and parcel of everyone’s everyday life they are less likely to lose their moral code. IMHO, it is when they are left alone and feel rejected in all areas of their lives that they feel alone and outcast that they feel that Hashem has abandoned them and that is when they let their guards down and give up or give in. That is also when they choose to move to a community of singles and that is the worst scenario possible. When that happens they become friends but forget to consider each other as possible prospects. The friend concept takes them out of the running for possible spouses for some reason although an outsider will point out that they can easily become mates. Amongst the single crowd they can only see each other as “friends”.
some do and some don’t.
the ones that don’t are the ones that have given up.
the ones that do still have HOPE.
a good dose of yiras shamayim and emunah also goes a long way, as with any trying situation.
The only way to stay moral is to watch your “boundaries” with the opposite gender and keep a strong Kesher to Torah. Always be moving up or forwards else you will be moving down or backwards.
1. Not staying single [Igros Moshe] – start looking at the age chazal tell you to, it will be easier
2. Not seeing the things that are ossur to see [ohr hachaim hakadosh Acharei Mos]
3. Not thinking the things that aere ossur [ohr hachaim hakadosh Acharei Mos]
4. Not spending too much time in ones own company
5. Akshonus [maseh Rav]
6. not giving in [Succa 52b]
7. learning Mussar and especially about these topics
8. Understanding that ultimate control needs much tefila and syata dishmaya
It is hard to elaborate more, it very much depends on the temperament of the individual, and on how much he has already steeped into the yetzer horah.
Yiras Shamaim. Plus, for b’sulos, it is different. Plus, some men have lower levels of yetser hora.
remember ayin rooah and hashem is watching always.
“the ones that don’t are the ones that have given up”
I dont think that is true.
Everyone is human and this is a HUGE nisayon.
How do older singles stay moral throughout a lifetime of singlehoodness?
By knowing the difference between right and wrong.
And btw, how many of those answering (other than yours truly) are actually older singles?
They usually don’t. But then again neither do you.
I got married in my twenties, which is not old yet I was out of school for a number of years, in which time I held down 2 jobs went to shiumrim and tried to keep very very busy. I stayed at work till about 8:00 and then ran to a shiur. In this way I was so distracted. That’s one helpful way perhaps.
Well speaking as someone who got married at 31 Let me make a few points.
1) It can be very hard to keep your hope up, esp after the 432nd person tells you “Don’t worry you will find someone” or the like.
2) Don’t marry the wrong person just to “get married” I almost did
3) Cold showers
4) Actually after the 823rd person says “Soon by you” there is an urge to deck them, try to not do that. (OK that one is a joke, well mostly)
(Disclaimer wasn’t shommer shabbat until I was 27 or so, though I still wanted to get married before that)
Its so easy for so many to judge a single girl, but when your thrown from a bais yaakov setting to the secular workforce its definitely easy to fall. Although I am in my early twenties I have never done anything immoral but definitely have done many things Hashem wouldnt approve of, but bh I am past that….
As a divorcee,I have noted that some people think we might have divorced our yiras shomayim together with our (in)significant other…and tend to be thought of as “bored” or “hefker”.We most certainly are neither.Please don’t cheapen any of us…
“It’s so easy to judge…”(but you should not, you imply) — I do not agree. We are not talking about some huge, unusual tests. If you go with this approach, one can’t condemn anybody for anything. Oy vey, heintike tsaiytn.
BTW, there comes a point, when one just has to drop many of the demands and just get married.
eclipse: unfortunately, MANY divorcees consider themselves above halacha and do, in fact, lose their yiras shamayim. if you are one of the few that haven’t, kol hakavod to you. i speak from personal experience with many of these.
Brooklyn Yenta,thank you.Just to point out,though:
As a kaf z’chus for SOME of them(I’m not saying all), I want to explain that some husbands do a pretty good job turning their wives OFF of whatever type of yiddishkeit they represented,thus the “off-the-derech” behavior of SOME divorcees.
It is extremely important to see them exactly as one would view a Holocaust survivor who lost his faith because of his experiences.COMMENDABLE?Perhaps not.Understandable? Yes.And only for Hashem to judge?Definitely.
Brooklyn Yenta, which circles are you talking about?
mdd
“BTW, there comes a point, when one just has to drop many of the demands and just get married”
We are going with the belief here that Hash-m DOESN’T run the world, correct?
Brooklyn Yenta
“MANY divorcees consider themselves above halacha and do, in fact, lose their yiras shamayim”
Besides for the Motzei Shem Ra and Loshon Hara (oh rite, that little mitzvah can be ignored) this is, in fact, a gross over-exaggeration.
It is a mit’sva for a man to get married(and for a woman, also). A person has bechira.
Bechira from today to tomorrow, some people still dont get married. Your comment is asinine at best.
It is nearly impossible for a human to stay moral throughout lifetime while being single.
“The obvious needs no proof.” Just look around and you will see.
Not getting married is fighting nature.
A person who been married and lost their spouse but has children, is a different story.
some people are not meant for marriage i am one of these , there are reasons i am not going to get married and these reasons are beyond my control and extremely personal dont generalize and assume
mdd- better to be married and divorced rather than never to be married? I think you are exaggerating and are misrepresenting the whole situation. Some people just cannot find their beshe’ert. Want them to marry an ax-murderer? Someone that they will get divorced from right away? Someone who doesn’t match them hashkafically or pesonality-wise? What if a man or a woman just have not been able to find someone they can build their life with- it is not always because of being picky or not doing hishtadlus- there are those who have gone to the shadchanim, gone out with those who seemed perfect on paper ect. Maybe the other person turned them down some of those times?
Yes, they need to stay moral, just like married people (no matter how old we get) need to stay moral.
One thing older singles need to change, as compared to the younger singles is stop relying on a system that is not working for them (regardless of the reason or unfair-ness of it) as start taking the serious matter of finding a partner on their own. Nothing stopped them from finding a job, nothing should stop them from finding a spouse.
In many ways, older singles are better suited to make (and see thru) their own decisions, than are the youngsters. The only thing you have to lose is your single-hood.
Don’t just sit there.. go get what’s rightfully yours!
BPT
I am so happy we are on the same page about this!
The only problem I have is that, why are we as a community at large continuing to use a system that is obviously broken? Why do you have to wait to become an “older single” to do things that are “less conventional”? If a system is broke, you fix it!
Raising the awareness is all very nice, but if you drop the ball after that, what have you accomplished?
Because we are an 800lb gorrila and change comes s-l-o-w-l-y.
But who says you need to wait till you become an “older” single? And who defines “older”? I would use this as a barometer; if your carrear is moving better than your dating, (or 2 years in the game, whichever comes first) you’re ready for a change of venue I’m not saying to burn bridges or be disrespectful to your parents / background, but if the “system” is not working for you, give 6 months notice and then try plan B.
And yes, we are on the same page here. I (as a parent of boys) think its deplorable how biased the dating system is in favor of boys
It’s been biased in favor of boys since, well, Adam met Eve. And its never going to change. Next issue.
As much as everyone says boys have the upper hand I really haven’t notice that…
This is where remembering that prayer overrides mazel–and teva–comes in.
Statistics are simply not an issue in shomayim.
I tell myself…if the challenges I have are unusual…the yeshuah can be above teva,too!
BPT
Oh, believe me I have been unconventional almost for as long as I’ve been conventional, and @ 23, dating for 5 years well, you do the math… I simply dont have patience for things to “fall into place”.
I think another major problem when dating “unconventionally” is that there arent Yeshivish and Modern Yeshivish people in that pool. It is usually more of the Modern Orthodox (across the spectrum) that find their dates on their own. I think the Yeshiva World has to come up with a Kosher way of having boys and girls meet.
Now, how was it biased by adam and eve? I’d like to hear this one.
Just as a person can have nisyonos in other mitsvos, he can have nisyonos regarding finding a wife. But it is an obligation, and it must be approached as such. If you can’t find your Miss Perfect, you drop some of the requirements. If you are in upper thirties and have been looking for over 10 years, consider marrying even divorcees and widows.
Sac, there is no way to keep it kosher. Its not going to happen.
casual dating is def a lot easier, but since its casual theres no pressure on getting married and many people end up crossing lines they wouldnt have if they had been shidduch dating.
Helpful
I can think of a lot of ways. Bottom line, those who want to get in trouble will, it doesnt have anything to do w a Kosher Singles Party.
“there arent Yeshivish and Modern Yeshivish people in that pool”
“there is no way to keep it kosher”
“many people end up crossing lines they wouldnt have “
Couldn’t disagree more. Not as strongly to each statement as the the next, but on the whole, this is something that can surely be done to everyone’s satisfaction. Try this:
Pick 2 shuls (other than your current one) you could see your self davening in. Start alternating davening there on shabbos, and get the rebbetzins to know you on a 1st name basis. Then, after 4 months, ask them, “do you know someone that would be a good shidduch for me?”
That way, she’ll she you’re consistant, persistant and erlich. How can that miss?
p.s. – This works for older boys too (just swap the rov for the rebbitzin)
BP, that’s cool, but that thankfully isn’t “boys and girls meeting on their own” — which is where all terrible problems can occur.
BPT
You are right. I should clarify
“there arent Yeshivish and Modern Yeshivish people in that pool”
In my age bracket, I know 😉
Oh, believe me I have been unconventional almost for as long as I’ve been conventional, and @ 23, dating for 5 years well, you do the math… I simply dont have patience for things to “fall into place”.
Can we please come up with a definition of “older single”? I don’t consider Sacrilege an “older single.”
Double your age and add some. Then quadruple the amount of time you’ve been dating. That is an older single!
disputes about definitions belong in the aguna thread.
The Mishna says Shemone Esre L’Chuppa. Once you start moving away from that, you start entering Older Single territory.
So 19 is considered an older single?
“In my age bracket”
Again, I respectfully disagree, and here’s why:
Right now, if you were to ask someone at random, “for whom are shidduchim a problem” they would say, “older frum girls”, because they are the easiest to spot.
But ask a rebbetzin, who knows “this person’s 28 y/o nephew from LA, or “so-and-so’s brother-in-law, who is starting his 3rd year in lakewood” or “the son of someone in her very own shul for whom the shadcahanim have given up on” (yet she know since he was a child, and is a great, but misunderstood boy) and you’ll see that there are opportunities just waiting to be acted on.
Trust me, Sac (and everyone else out there). Don’t accept the status quo. Put on your behaviour and get out in the arena!
There are different madreiga’s obviously. But according to Chazal, 19 is the first step in that door.
Helpful –
Sorry, I didnt catch your meaning. Please clarify.
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