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In one of the other threads, there is a debate raging about R’ Soloveitchik zt”l and Modern Orthodoxy. Many people are claiming that the Rav zt”l was mistaken in his beliefs, and that MO is not real Judaism.
When the Baal Shem Tov started chassidus, there were many people who said he was wrong, and was leaving the proper path of Judaism. The Vilna Gaon, in particular, was a fierce opponent of chassidus. In many areas, chassidim were placed in cherem. When R’ Akiva Eiger’s grandson became a chossid, his father, R’ Shlomo Eiger, sat shiva for him.
The Rambam was also extremely controversial in his time. Both the Mishna Torah and the Moreh Nevuchim were extremely controversial. They were banned, and in some cases were even burned publicly.
People here often speak about the Satmar Rav, R’ Yoel zt”l (mostly in connection with Zionism discussions). Would anyone dare to call him an apikores, and say his derech was not real Judaism, because of what the Vilna Gaon zt”l said about chassidus?
Have you ever walked into a yeshiva that didn’t have a Mishna Torah? Would anyone dare suggest not using it because it was banned and burned (most notably by the Ravad)?
Of course not. Both Chassidus and the Rambam, although controversial in their time, proved that they are just different paths to the same destination. I firmly believe that R’ Soloveitchik’s derech is just another one of those paths. Shivim panim l’Torah. Modern Orthodoxy is just one of those 70. Treat it as such.
Modern Orthodoxy is just one of those 70. Treat it as such.
I’ve found that some people view of derachim in yiddishkeit is like Henry Ford’s view regarding choice of color in the Model-T.
The Wolf
The are legitimate shittos and there are illegitimate “shittos” (i.e. Reform et al). Rambam and Chasidus was accepted as 100% legit by all Gedolim of subsequent doros. MO was not.
Rambam and Chasidus was accepted as 100% legit by all Gedolim of subsequent doros. MO was not.
Easy to say that hundreds of years after the fact. It took quite a while for the Rambam and Chassidus to be “accepted as 100% legit,” sometimes even a century or two. How do you know that MO won’t be “accepted as 100% legit” hundreds of years from now?
The Wolf
I’ve found that some people view of derachim in yiddishkeit is like Henry Ford’s view regarding choice of color in the Model-T.
So true (and a very good dimyon to the claim of Shivim Panim), I smiled when I read this.
Thank you.
I mentioned this idea on the other thread: the numbers don’t count, there can be a daas yachid or close to it who is yet widely respected and thus can be followed. But one would do well to be sure that s/he is following a live expositor of those shitos, for the reality check value and to have a shaichus to someone IRL.
Feif, I am not disagreeing with your point, but PLEASE GET YOUR HISTORY STRAIGHT.
Tach V’Tat occurred in 1648-1649 in Eastern Europe. The Cossack rebellion against the Ukrainian and Polish nobility began in Ukraine and spread to south easter Poland (Galicia). These were not areas in which Rambam’s writings had been previously been burned (Italy, Provence, Rhineland).
Perhaps what you are thinking of is the burning of the Talmud in Paris in 1242.
Rav Elchonon Wasserman zt”l said it was better to stay in war torn Europe, risking ones physical lie, then to accept a VISA to go to YU in America, thereby risking ones spiritual life. Here is the text the letter:
“Baruch Hashem, Erev Shabbos Kodesh Naso
I received your letters but I have no ability to do anything with this, thus I did not respond.
The yeshivos in America which are able to bring over students are the yeshivas of Dr. Revel (named Yeshiva University) in New York and Beis Midrash L’Torah in Chicago and they both are places of danger in terms of spirituality because they conduct themselves in a spirit of freedom, and what benefit is there to flee from a physical danger to a spiritual danger, but I sent your letter to the revered Gaon, Rabbi Moshe Heiman, Dean of Mesivtha Torah V’Daas in Brooklyn and I suggested that he request of the revered Dean of the Mirrer Yeshiva that he should also write to Brooklyn to the address below:
Rabbi Shlomo Heiman
92 Martin Street
America
Blessing you with life and peace and all good things forever,
Elchanan Bunim Wasserman”
“Rambam and Chasidus was accepted as 100% legit by all Gedolim of subsequent doros. MO was not. “
R’Soloveitchik was very close to R’Kotler z’tz’l, R’Hutner z’tz’l, and the Lubavicher Rebbe z’tz’l even though they disagreed on many matters. R’Kotler even had R’Soloveitchik speak at a fundraising dinner for Chinuch Atzmai. Also notable is that R’Soloveitchik was a member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of Agudath Israel of America while still in his 30s, before he became a Rosh Yeshiva, while he was still teaching secular philosophy to undergraduates and after he started a co-ed school. So clearly a large segment of the Torah community in America accepted him.
“Helpful, how many doros has it been since R’ Soloveitchik zt”l? 2 or 3? “
Not even one. He was niftar in 1993. Most of his leading talmidim are still teaching at YU or in Israel.
“But one would do well to be sure that s/he is following a live expositor of those shitos, for the reality check value and to have a shaichus to someone IRL. “
This is true for any derech. My rav consistently paskens like Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l whenever he personally heard a mesorah from him — even when it is a daat yachid.
Worthy of note is that the dati leumi community in Israel generally follows the derech of Rav Kook z’tz’l and his talmidim rather than that of Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l. There are many differences between these two non-charedi paths.
In the minivan carpool brigade at my kids’ yeshivas, there are rarely any red ones to be seen…
Neither the Rambam ZT”L nor the Vilna Gaon ZT”L nor the Baal Shem Tov ZT”L did ever advocate women wearing pants, or short-sleeved or sleeveless shirts (uncovering the elbows and forearms), or shorts or short skirts (uncovering the thighs and knees), or low-cut shirts in front or back, or mixed swimming, or mixed dancing, or married women with uncovered heads.
If you will ask any Jewish woman today why she does any of the above-mentioned things, she’ll answer that it’s because she’s “modern.”
Or is it because she’s “Conservative” or “Reform” ?
I think it pays to go back and understand the term modern orthodox, and there was another thread discussing this recently, I think.
In the early 1900’s Modern Orthodox and Young Israel and Zeiri Agudas Yisroel were all movements to help keep people frum. To fight against the especially strong tide of chilul Shabbos.
In the book about Irving Bunim you see a photo of his wife with her hair uncovered. Yet he worked with R Aharon Kotler and both he and his wife were very active in promoting Yiddishkeit. Just the times and a lack of knowlege meant the standards were much lower. Covering hair was a neglected mitzvah as was shatnez.
There are those today who call themselves modern orthodox, but are very makpid on halacha. There are also those who violate halacha in many ways, mostly from a lack of knowlege of the importance of various halachos. They continue keeping what their parents kept, but not more, not really having a strong connection to Yiddishkeit and mitzvos.
I think any serious Jew would agree their Yiddishkeit is lacking, but would look at them in a sense as a tinok she’nishba.
That is the modern orthodoxy that many Gedolim criticized – one of compromise or neglect of basic halacha.
No, the Ba’al Shem & Chassidim (at least the way the Gaon saw it) advocated the abrogation of your personal responsibility to learn Torah, claimed they were capable of independently making Nissim, and placed the Rebbe on the level of a god (lower case).
Not that any of this is currently true (with minor exceptions), but the claims are way worse then you would think.
Wanderingchana, what about 12 seaters?
Here, in out of town (does that explain it all?) I’ve seen LOTS of red cars (cue out to Twilight Zone music, because I don’t get it otherwise)
I think it pays to go back and understand the term modern orthodox,
okay what does modern mean?
in what sense is modern orthodox modern?
why was that word chosen
modern in what sense?
can you explain what is meant by this part of the name
Feif Un:
What exactly is the definition of a Modern Orthodox Rabbi?
How does a Rabbi qualify to be Modern Orthodox?
What does it mean when one says that a Rabbi is Modern Orthodox?
Hey!
my question first
what is meant by modern??
Modern society
which society?
it seems to me that, much as this will be rejected, modern society means the Goyish society.
seems to me, that modern orthodoxy is founded on the desire to integrate being Jewish and following ALL Halachah, with the manner of conduct of modern society, which is the modern Goyim, as long as it does not directly conflict with concrete Jewish Law.
that’s how it seems to me. ie denim jeans, sneakers, baseball caps, movies, novels, sports, tv, radio, newspapers, magazines, politics, college, university education.
to the MO advocates, am i in the ballpark here?
Modern Rabbis may not personaly subscribe to the lifestyles of their followers, but neither do they strongly try to influence them otherwise. And that is because there is an erosion of respect for daas Torah among modern Jews. Not to say this may not exist in other sectors, but it is not as visible.
I highly doubt that Rav Solovetchik labeled himself a Modern Orthodox Rav.
Rabbonim do not and never gave heterim for women to NOT cover their hair, nor to dress in any way that was not tznius. It is to encourage the love of mitzvos and to CHOOSE to do more mitzvos with the proper kavonos and understanding of them and to understand why they are doing them. In other words to understand who they are and why they do what they do. A RAV can’t force a kehilah to do anything. They can only teach them and hope they follow the rules. Otherwise people will only follow the rules in public while breaking the rules in private.
EDITED
Feif:
You are correct that there was opposition to Chasidus and the Rambam etc. long ago, and that therefore opposition in and of itself does not prove someone is wrong. But you also cannot use the fact that the Rambam had opposition to negate charges against MO, because the Conservative and Reform etc. can say the same thing: Maybe in 100 years everyone will agree that Reform is right, like they agree that the Rambam was right?
So now my question to you is, how do you know if the opposition to MO is like the opposition to the Rambam, or like opposition to Zionism or Reform? Isn’t it true that although there has been mistaken opposition in the past, there has also been legitimate opposition as well, and therefore, the most you can say is “I dont know if I am right or wrong. The Rambam had opposition but so did Reform. I do not know if I am like the Rambam or Reform.”
No, the Ba’al Shem & Chassidim (at least the way the Gaon saw it) advocated the abrogation of your personal responsibility to learn Torah, claimed they were capable of independently making Nissim, and placed the Rebbe on the level of a god (lower case).
Not that any of this is currently true (with minor exceptions), but the claims are way worse then you would think.
The reason that this isn’t currenly the case is because of the efforts of the Vilna Gaon.
No Modern Orthodox Rabbi ever advocated those things either. Are there people who do it? Unfortunately, yes. That doesn’t mean it’s the “official party line” of Modern Orthodoxy. Chances are, if Modern Orthodoxy didn’t exist, those people wouldn’t be keeping kosher or Shabbos at all either.
Can I add that according to the Conservative “party line”, you should be shomer shabbos and kashrus, however most who identify as “conservative” are not.
claimed they were capable of independently making Nissim
independently, without Hashem? they NEVER claimed such apikorsus
placed the Rebbe on the level of a god (lower case)
what does THAT mean? independent powers? they NEVER claimed that
Mod-80, some of those things in your list are worthy, and others are not. It is difficult to know what exactly is the right thing for a Jew at any given moment.
For example, I doubt any Chareidi yeshivos in Israel have any organized sports, or even a gym to play in. Yet, it is pretty well-accepted that getting exercise is necessary for good health. All modern orthodox schools encourage sports in one way or another.
I am willing to bet that most Chareidim in the USA follow sports to some extent, and all have heard of Babe Ruth, etc. To a Chareidi in EY, the Chareidim in the USA are modern orthodox.
So there is really no definition of modern. It is how much we take from the outside world in conducting our lives. We many not dress in black and white, but we often have tzitzis out, and all of us, except in rare circumstances, wear yarmulkas. SO we don’t hide our Judaism, but we try to dress in whatever way is considered dignified in the current times. That is how we interpret lo shinu es malbusham, dignified, and with tznius, not necessarily black and white.
We speak a pure English, not mixed in with all kinds of Yeshivishe and Yiddish words. But we speak with refinement. That is Lo shinu es leshonam, the manner of speech, not the language itself. With kindness, patience and staying away from nivul peh, etc. We do not believe one needs to speak Yiddish to be frum.
As far as movies or novels, one would hope that one reads kosher books, or sees kosher and educational films, not containing inappropriate scenes. Yet, we don’t say all movies and books and TV are asur. It is a case by case basis. I let my kids watch a little sports, and I like to watch election debates and returns. Once in while there may be an educational show worth watching. I personally believe that most TV is a waste of time, yet I don’t subscribe to the view that TV is a toevah and forbidden. it all depends on the use. Same with a phone. One can call bad places or good places. And of course the internet is a far bigger problem than phones and TV. Yet we use internet, and try to maintain self-control not to go to bad sites. I believe most Chareidim in the USA also use internet. So this further proves that USA Chareidim are really modern orthodox. They also go to concerts, etc.
Many Chareidim in the USA also go to college in some form or another. The entire Agudah membership is baalei batim many of whom are professionals, i.e., doctors, lawyers, accountants. All of these require degrees. So USA chareidim like to denounce the MO, when they themselves are far more like the MO than like the Israeli Chareidim.
So it is all a matter of where one draws his own personal line. There really is no line. As far as denim, many Chareidim in the USA also wear denim, especially on Sundays, or if they are in professions requiring manual labor. I see them wearing a hat and jacket over the denim and T-shirts all the time.
BTW, do you really believe that American Chareidim are less likely to have visited an inappropriate web site than MO are? A person’s yiras shamayim is a private and personal struggle and has nothing to do with labels.
To Moderator 80,
Yes, many modern orthodox jews do wear denim jeans, sneakers, go to college, and read novels. I do all of that.
But what about Chareidi Jews? Don’t they wear western style suits and ties, wear Italian brand -name hats and shoes, drive American cars, use modern electronics, live in modern housing, speak the vernacular? You are not quite the Amish that you hope or claim to be- you also engage modernity to some degree, as well as reject it to some degree.
Charedi jews have also modernized, just not as much as the so called Modern orthodox. Don’t you think that if the chasam sofer heard the shiurim given in lakewood yeshiva today, he would be aghast , because they;re given in ENGLISH, and he and his followers absolutely refused to recognize the legitimacy of any Rabbi who spoke to his congregation in the vernacular? My bet is that some of his followers, if around today, might throw around some denigrating terms at the lakewood community since they’ve adopted many western styles.
So where do you draw the line? Is wearing a westernized suit and tie like a chareidi might not as bad as wearing jeans and sneakers like a YU guy might? Does either one violate halacha? I would argue that if jeans and sneakers is chukos hagoim, then so is the black suit that chareidi wears.
So what is the big substantial difference, in my opinion, between the MO and chareidi? Its not whether to engage the non society or not. Its whether to engage JEWISH society, the part of it that isn’t too much like us anymore, the Jews that arent too frum, who don;t really learn all that much, who live in small towns across the country and who struggle to maintain some connection. I think that Chareidi society will not encourage their sons to become rabannim in smaller, lesser frum communities, because they will then be at ‘risk’. Better to stay in Lakewood and learn in yeshiva.
In contrast, YU will encourage their many many semicha recipients to fan out across the country to lead congregations, some that are borderline conservative- YU believes that its worth the risk to the young man, if he can inspire the congregation.
But you need to be able to communicate with them- the tools to communicate with these people are modern education, politics, sports, etc. Rabbis who speak the language of the people will be better positioned to reach the people and inspire them.
I;ve been to many small congregations like these – the rabbi is invariably a YU graduate. They are trained well.
‘Neither the Rambam ZT”L nor the Vilna Gaon ZT”L nor the Baal Shem Tov ZT”L did ever advocate women wearing pants’
Given that modern trousers didn’t exist during their lifetimes, how could they have?
Feif Un:
What kind of lifestyle do Modern Orthodox Rabbis live and teach others? Example?
Did the Rambam, Vilna Gaon, and Baal Shem Tov advocate or permit mixed dancing, mixed swimming, or married women with uncovered heads?
I think these chareidi/MO discussions really are a waste of time. Everyone considers anyone to the left of themselves MO & anyone to the right of themselves fanatical. The bottom line is – everyone needs to have a Rav who they follow. If you have a Rav whose derech hachaim you follow – whatever it is – you are in good shape. And, if you don’t – you’re in trouble.
Ok, here I go:
“denim jeans, “
I don’t own any denim clothing.
“sneakers,”
I wear canvas Converse sneakers two days a year: Tisha B’Av and Yom Kippur.
“baseball caps,”
I keep a baseball cap in my backpack in case I ever need to enter a non-kosher restaurant to use the restroom. Otherwise I wear a black velvet yarmulka at all times except when showering and sleeping.
” movies,”
I’m not against movies, but I haven’t been in a movie theatre in several years. We occasionally rent classic movies using Netflix, most recently “How Green Was My Valley”.
” novels,”
I sometimes read novels; I recently completed the Harry Potter series and a few years ago completed Herman Wouk’s two novels of World War Two and the Shoah, “The Winds of War” and “War and Remembrance”. I’ve also read, “The Caine Mutiny” and his three books on Judaism.
” sports,”
I used to be a sports fan, but don’t follow it much any more. I recently visited New Orleans and didn’t realize that their NFL team had won the Super Bowl until I saw the congratulations billboards.
” tv,”
We don’t own a TV.
“radio,”
I listen to radio a lot — mostly WQXR, the classical music station.
” newspapers,”
I read newspaper sites on the internet.
” magazines,”
I subscribe to *Scientific American*, *The Atlantic*, and *The New Republic*.
” politics,”
Left wing Democrat. No, correct that — not all that far to the left, certainly not a socialist. Just left wing compared to a lot of the commenters on frum sites.
” college, university education.”
That is probably the thing that really does distinguish “modern orthodox” from other Torah paths. We see that Jews have been attending university since the time of the rishonim and see no reason to change that mesorah. And we see it as a l’chatchila not a b’dieved.
That said, university education isn’t for everyone. I would suggest that non-Jews and Jews alike might be better off postponing university until they are mature enough to get the most benefit for their tuition — and for Jews, until they have learned enough Torah to distinguish the hashkafah of Rambam from taht of Ayn Rand.
“I highly doubt that Rav Solovetchik labeled himself a Modern Orthodox Rav. “
I’m unaware of him using the term. But he certainly supported university education, which is the most notable characteristic of the MO derech. He, his wife, his son, both daughters, and both sons-in-law all earned doctorates in secular subjects. He also was extremely emphatic on making education available to women as well as men.
‘Can I add that according to the Conservative “party line”, you should be shomer shabbos and kashrus, however most who identify as “conservative” are not. ‘
One distinction between “Conservative” and “Modern Orthodox” is that it is almost impossible to find any community that calls itself “Conservative” in which most of those who identify with it keep Shabat and kashrut. But there are many, many MO communities that are bursting at the seams with Jews who keep Shabat and kashrut.
“We speak a pure English, not mixed in with all kinds of Yeshivishe and Yiddish words.”
I heard a story about one Rosh Yeshiva at YU. A talmid asked a question during shiur in heavy Yeshivish. The RY asked him to restate the question in his choice of language: English, Yiddish, or Hebrew were all acceptable. The point is that we should use proper grammar and vocabulary in whatever language we use.
“YU will encourage their many many semicha recipients to fan out across the country to lead congregations, some that are borderline conservative”
And in the past ten years Yeshivat Chovevei Torah has been even more aggressive in encouraging their talmidim to go to small communities in the interest of building them up.
“everyone needs to have a Rav who they follow. If you have a Rav whose derech hachaim you follow – whatever it is – you are in good shape. And, if you don’t – you’re in trouble. “
Amen and amen.
Everyone has their own comfort level so they think if you are below thet level you are not frum and if you are above thet level you are a “farfrumter”.
“Can I add that according to the Conservative “party line”, you should be shomer shabbos and kashrus, however most who identify as “conservative” are not.”
One distinction between “Conservative” and “Modern Orthodox” is that it is almost impossible to find any community that calls itself “Conservative” in which most of those who identify with it keep Shabat and kashrut. But there are many, many MO communities that are bursting at the seams with Jews who keep Shabat and kashrut.
Yet in many of those MO communities, despite the party line to the contrary, most of them violate various laws – i.e. mixed swimming, covering hair, etc.
And in the past ten years Yeshivat Chovevei Torah has been even more aggressive in encouraging their talmidim to go to small communities in the interest of building them up.
YCT isn’t Orthodox.
Mod80
Question: what is meant by modern??
Feif Un
Answer: Modern in the sense that you can integrate Modern society into an Orthodox lifestyle.
So a Satmar Chosid computer programmer is Modern Orthodox?
Is Rabbi Abraham Twersky MD, Modern Orthodox?
“Covering hair was a neglected mitzvah as was shatnez.”
I fully cover my hair, so this reply does not come from a place where I feel I shouldn’t have to do so. However, you are comparing the issur of shaatnez which is clearly written in the Torah Shebichsav, to the issur, as we understand it, of a married woman uncovering her head, which is only implied in the very barest (no pun intended) of ways in the Written Torah, and not spelled out b’feirush. Even in the Gemarah where it discusses Seyar B’isha Erva, it is the subject of much discussion as to what constitutes seyar, erva, how much, what may be seen, etc. The implication because the Sotah’s head is uncovered by the Kohein, is that it must have been covered up. You probably cannot really compare these two ideas, to make your point, IMO. They would appear to be apples and oranges.
Hmm. Okay, so now we’ve further refined that a modern orthodox person must dress like the goyim (they are after all “most people”) and speak like a goy.
Any other factors determine if one is MO?
“YCT isn’t Orthodox. “
More motzi shem ra. There is nothing about it that isn’t orthodox.
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